NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Mike Braun
Interview
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CHUCK TODD:
And I'm joined now by that senator you just heard from. He's Republican Mike Braun of Indiana. I guess you're technically a freshman senator.
SEN. MIKE BRAUN:
I am.
CHUCK TODD:
So, Senator Braun --
SEN. MIKE BRAUN:
Don't feel like it.
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to say, "Welcome to the NFL," as they say. Welcome to Meet the Press. Let me get on this witness question. And I want to get at it by you first hearing something that Peggy Noonan, a columnist in the Wall Street Journal, said to me on Friday. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PEGGY NOONAN:
Get them in there. Show history you did your best. Avoid the stigma of, "Yeah, they won, but they didn't let the extra people talk." Avoid the stigma. Respect history. Make the case big. End of story.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
She's basically saying, "You've got the votes. Be magnanimous here." Because it's if -- you want to essentially, heal the country. You want to prove you went above and beyond. What do you say to her?
SEN. MIKE BRAUN:
The first place I saw that happen early was when several of us decided that, "Why argue about what to submit into the record?" Everything that happened in the House. And I was one of them. And then when it was a discussion of how much time do we need to spend, I now know that we did need three days on each side, if you're going to take especially most of that 24 hours. But when it comes to this, I think it goes back to where I'm from, and it was ironic. And I'll make this quick. I met Adam just in the green room.
CHUCK TODD:
Very Washington moment we just had. I understand that --
SEN. MIKE BRAUN:
Very Washington moment. I think born in Massachusetts, lives in California, represents the Hollywood district. I was born in rural southern Indiana, moved to Boston for two years to go to school and come back. And I asked him, "When we're done with this, can we get together on, like, health care?" where I've led the way. He said yes. That's a moment where I think we can take optimism out of something that looks so divided. But when it comes to witnesses and Peggy's point, Chuck Schumer and Speaker Pelosi, and I think Speaker Pelosi was more apprehensive about this whole thing playing out to get to where it is now, they knew the rules. They knew Mitch McConnell was on the other side, controlling it. And for me, I paid attention to each version of the House inquiry, behind closed doors, public version, the four constitutional experts, and was really looking for what I found that was new. And it was repackaging. So I think when it comes to witnesses, each senator will have to ask with the political exigencies within their own area and the fairness factor, "Do we need them?" And I'll --
CHUCK TODD:
It's interesting, this new issue, okay? If you didn't hear anything new, then don't you want to hear from witnesses like John Bolton, who you've yet to hear from? I mean, to me this is a contradiction, that this, this talking point hasn't been squared very well. Fair?
SEN. MIKE BRAUN:
I think if you want to take that point of view, yes. For many of us, depending on where you're from -- and this also is not only your own conscience you have to measure here. It is what your constituents --
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to say, do you believe your vote --
SEN. MIKE BRAUN:
-- you know, talk about --
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to ask you that. Do you believe you're casting your vote for the people that elected you? Or are you casting your vote based on your interpretation of the oath you took?
SEN. MIKE BRAUN:
And it is a tricky combination of both. Because I came here clearly not to be embroiled in this. Brought some things from Main Street that I thought would make sense. And on all of those issues, whether it's this or what I really came here to do, it'll always be based on principle. And here, the case so far -- and I'll give them credit. They've put together a broad, comprehensive case. But it was circumstantial in nature. And then you say, "Well, you're splitting hairs." But this is a political process. Begs the question of all of us as jurors. You know, and none of us would be there in a normal trial. So.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I guess the case for witnesses that Adam Schiff made that I thought was an intriguing one, was, "Don't you want to get to the bottom of it now? Why wait til the book comes out? Or why wait till more recordings from Lev Parnas show up that suddenly -- you know, why do that? Why risk that? Don't you want to know it now and then decide?"
SEN. MIKE BRAUN:
So 20 years ago, which is our only guideline, and we were starting to get politically charged then, and it was probably a mistake, and it was clearly proven out when it occurred. So here, we're now in a more polarized time and place. And I think when it comes to seeing all this information, that is going to be so intertwined with your own political context. And that's what each senator is wrestling with. I talked to Lisa, I talked to Susan at the tail end. And they are wrestling with that. And it's a bigger deal in some places. In my area, the fact that they were talking about impeachment around inauguration, it was a partisan, you know, vote coming over. And then it does overturn an election and it prevents another one nine months away. That's what Hoosiers are thinking about.
CHUCK TODD:
When it comes to, though, the issue itself, which is this idea that the president used government resources to benefit himself personally, it's clear he made this attempt. You can decide whether -- you've said yourself the call wasn't perfect. The question is if you believe impeachment is too big, too strong of a penalty, what's the right penalty?
SEN. MIKE BRAUN:
So that topic from reporters kept coming up about censure. And all I can say on this issue, this ought to be instructive to anyone here that if you're pushing the envelope or doing things that may not feel right, let alone be right, you better be careful. Because we're in that kind of atmosphere now --
CHUCK TODD:
Donlad Trump doesn't -- this president, as you know, he's going to take acquittal and think, "I can keep doing this."
SEN. MIKE BRAUN:
No, I don't think that. Hopefully it'll be instructive to where --
CHUCK TODD:
When you say "hopefully," I mean, what's the evidence in his lifetime that he takes any sort of whatever it is, a misdemeanor ticket or whatever, and then he accepts that and goes, "Yeah, I'll change my behavior"?
SEN. MIKE BRAUN:
I think he'll put two and two together. In this case, he was taken to the carpet. And it's because --
CHUCK TODD:
You think he has regret with what he did?
SEN. MIKE BRAUN:
I think he'll be instructed by what has occurred here. And certainly any individual would want to avoid whatever might need to be modified to go through this again. Because the threat has already been out there that we may find something else to impeach on, which I think is a mistake because I think we need to get back to what most Americans are interested in: the agenda.
CHUCK TODD:
You got, you got hit on Twitter because there's a photo of you and Rudy Giuliani and Lev Parnas.
SEN. MIKE BRAUN:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
And we'll put it up because I want to ask you this question about Rudy Giuliani. Are you at all now questioning the president's judgment based on how much he relies on Rudy Giuliani? I mean, look at -- you took a photo with him. You were trusting him that he wasn't going to put somebody who was eventually going to get indicted in a photo with you. First of all, do you trust Rudy Giuliani anymore?
SEN. MIKE BRAUN::
First of all, I'd say you'd have to question who his cohorts are, Igor and Lev. That's --
CHUCK TODD:
What about Rudy's judgment.
SEN. MIKE BRAUN:
And I think that brings that into play, too. I had not met Rudy other than his 15-minute cameo appearance put on by the Indiana GOP. And now I'm in a frameable picture.
CHUCK TODD:
No, I get that. But that's on Rudy. And does it call into question the president's judgment in your mind, that he surrounds himself with these folks?
SEN. MIKE BRAUN:
Remember I said "instructive"? I think that you need to take all of that into consideration. Because when you get through this, you want to get back on those issues that I came here for: the climate discussion. We're foot draggers on it. We are on health care. And if you want to be successful as your vindication with an agenda, let's get focused on that.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Mike Braun, Republican from Indiana, I'm going to have to leave it there. Thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective.
SEN. MIKE BRAUN:
You're welcome.
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