ABC Nightline - Transcript

ABC News Transcripts

SHOW: NIGHTLINE (11:35 PM ET) - ABC

HEADLINE: NIGHTLINE AFTERSHOCK

BODY:
TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) Joining us tonight, Vicente Valles, the deputy director of news and a political correspondent for the Spanish television network TeleCinco. Senator Joseph Biden, the senior Democrat on the Senate's Foreign Relations Committee. And Jim Hoagland, foreign affairs columnist for "The Washington Post." Vicente, let me begin by asking you to give us a little bit of a sense of this new Prime Minister of yours. He has been rather blunt in expressing his views about President Bush, about Mr. Kerry, and about what he thinks of the -of the Spanish presence in Iraq. Just give us a thumbnail sketch, would you?

VICENTE VALLES, TELECINCO

Sure. His campaign, Mr. Zapatero said that he doesn't care about the relationship between Spain and the US because John Kerry, he said, is going to be the next President of the United States. Mr. Zapatero says that the three leaders of the Iraq war will be defeated in the elections, the first test having passed, Aznar and his ruling party are out of power. The second, he says, is George Bush. And the third will be Tony Blair. Zapatero thinks that John Kerry is going to change dramatically the American policy about Iraq. He knows that mostly of the Spaniards and also other Europeans want to see Mr. Kerry in the White House. So, this political message could gave him some extra votes in the next elections. And now, I can give you some information that some people from the Kerry campaign have called today to Zapatero headquarters here in Madrid. Mr. Zapatero wasn't there at the moment, so the Kerry people promised to call back, maybe in the next few days.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) Senator Biden, let me begin by asking you whether you think that the Zapatero party is accurate in believing that things would be very different under a President Kerry. I mean, can you see President Kerry pulling troops out of Iraq?

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

Absolutely not. I've spoken with John extensively, Senator Kerry, about this. He believes very strongly it's important that we finish the job in Iraq. He's as disappointed as I am of the absolute terrible planning in post-Saddam era in Iraq. And I think the one fundamental change would be that he would side with those in this Administration who believe when the CPA, headed by Mr. Bremer leaves, as Paul says, wheels up on June 30th, that there be the equivalent of a high commissioner, reporting to the United Nations Security Council, acting as the referee from that point on between then and the general election. That would be the most significant thing that would change in my view, in the Kerry Administration, if he were able to make that decision prior to November, which he can't.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) Is it fair, Jim Hoagland, to say that the terrorists, whoever they were -and I think the general assumption is it was somebody at least related to al Qaeda, that they brought down the Spanish government?

JIM HOAGLAND

Well, I think we have to be very careful, in fact, very humble about what we know at this point. But I think it's pretty clear that the terrorists will believe that themselves. They will believe that they have overthrown a government. That they have been able to go to the heart of a democratic process in Western Europe and influence it and affect it. And you have to worry that they'll be tempted to try that again, where there are other elections.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) For example?

JIM HOAGLAND

United States of America, for example. I think, without being alarmist about it, we have to now consider the fact that we are conducting an election campaign in the shadow of a kind of terrorism that we have not known before. And that both the candidates, the major parties, and American citizens have to look very hard, very realistically at the prospect that al Qaeda will try to influence the American election.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) Senator Biden, as a member of what always used to be referred to as the loyal opposition ...

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

It is loyal.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) Maybe you need to say to anyone who's listening out there, what you think would be likely to happen in the event of a terrorist attack just before an election in this country.

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

Well, I'd like to say two things, Ted. I do not at all believe that the American people would react in a way that if we were bombed that they would "take it out on the President of the United States." So, if al Qaeda is thinking that that's the way to affect the election then I'm not at all sure that they're correct, that that would happen. It seems to me that -that the point that Jim Hoagland made here is very, very important. And that is that we have to understand that it will be read by the terrorists, by the terrorists, by al Qaeda, that they affected an election. When, in fact, I'm not certain that -they affected it for reasons they may think they affected it.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) Let's take a short break. When we come back, I want to pick up on that point. Because it's not the first time they may have affected what's going on in Iraq. And I'll bring that second point in, in just a moment.

commercial break

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) And we're back once again with all of our guests. Jim Hoagland, let me begin with you. What I was referring to just before the break is that, last summer when there was that terrible explosion at UN headquarters in Baghdad, that without any question, resulted in the UN pulling its personnel out of Baghdad. And to all intents and purposes, they have not gone back. There is a chance here that all kinds of things can unravel if the UN does not go back in force. Just sort of follow that through for a moment, would you?

JIM HOAGLAND

I think there is quite a strong comparison to be made there. It is still a huge problem for Kofi Annan. And now, for the Bush administration, which has, belatedly or not, invited the UN in. The staff of the United Nations is still traumatized by the events of last August, the killing of Sergio Demillo. And we still see the consequences of that.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) Senator Biden, let me ask you to do a riff on that same theme, as it were. What happen if we cannot convince the United Nations to go back in a substantial presence in Iraq?

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

I've spoke on the Kofi. I've spoken to every major European leader. They're ready to go back. But here's the deal, Ted. They're not going to go back if they don't have a hand to play. They're not going to go back as the handmaiden of an American ambassador in a super embassy. They will go back if they have a major role in the political process. I.E., the Security Council calling the shots, relative to the political questions that have to be made -decisions have to be made. And I even went so far as my discussions with Chirac and the members of the -permanent representatives at NATO. NATO is ready to come back in. But they are not going to go back in under this -in this netherland of not knowing who's in charge, who will follow Bremer, and how it will work. This requires the President be decisive. If he's decisive, they will come back. If he's not, they will not and we will reap the whirlwind.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) Jim, let me just turn to you on that point that Senator Biden just mentioned ago, the super embassy. I don't know how many people realize the CPA, the Coalition Provisional Authority, has personnel of about 1,400. There is talk of bringing about 4,000 people into this embassy. This will be the biggest embassy in the history of the world. Twice the size of what is now the largest US embassy, which I believe is in Cairo. Now, what's the implication of that, Jim?

JIM HOAGLAND

Well, the implication of some of is that it's stalk. The highest number I've heard is 3,000. I think that's probably exaggerated. And it's very much related, Ted, to the point that Senator Biden just made, that you asked about. Number of nations in NATO, the UN staff, will also insist on things being more secure than they are today, before they will come back in. They may use Bush unilateralism as an excuse. But the fact of the matter is, security is an overwhelming concern for them. And it has to be an overwhelming concern for putting that many Americans in the area. So, we have to see a progressive buildup, perhaps, of an American embassy there. We're not going to dump 4,000 Americans into the streets of Baghdad tomorrow, or July 1.

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

And Ted, can I add a point? The Administration is talking about drawing down American troops, drawing down American troops before the election. Which I find totally counterintuitive. Because again, again the statement just made, security is the ball game. They have to be secure. We're not going to convince people if we don't get NATO in or we don't maintain the force structure we have now. That merely by putting up to 3,000 or 4,000 civilians in we're going to enhance security. But the bottom line is, if you want the UN to take on greater responsibility, they have to have a greater say. It's that basic.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) Vicente, let me just ask you for your view, not only from Spain but as a European. Is the feeling throughout Europe now that the terrorists have achieved something that they set out to achieve or that this just happened accidentally?

VICENTE VALLES

Well, I'm not sure. I think that nothing happens accidentally in this world now. Or you at least has to be prepared now to know that nothing can be accidentally in this kind of thing. Now, we have here, in Spain for instance, a new Prime Minister. He has said, after the attacks, and before the terrorist attacks, that he clearly wants the Spanish troops in Iraq, will come home at the end of June. If the United Nations don't take full control of the situation in Iraq before that moment. So, this is very different that the current Prime Minister has said in the last year and a half. So, things will come -will change in the next -in the near future here in Spain. So, I think it can change also in the rest of Europe.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) Senator Biden, before we go, just give me a sense of how important you feel it is for there to be bipartisanship in this country on the issue of where to go in Iraq.

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

It's absolutely, positively important. But, Ted, the President has to pick a side within his Administration. The debate I just outlined is taking place now. Not between Democrats and Republicans, between Republicans and Republicans in the Administration. And one last thing. If the Lord came down today and said, "John Kerry, you can win the election if there's another 9/11." John Kerry would say, "I've known him for 32 years, I don't want to be President, make no 9/11 again." So, I want to make it clear that I -never heard John Kerry or anyone suggest that if, in fact, this happened in the United States, it would benefit Democrats. It will not benefit Democrats. It will not benefit anyone. And we have to figure out how to get it right in Iraq now, so this thing doesn't start to fall apart across Europe.

TED KOPPEL

(Off Camera) Senator Biden, thank you very much. Thank you Jim Hoagland. Thank you Vicente Valles. Good of all of you to join us. There was terrorism of another sort in Iraq today. An update on that when we come back.