CNN "State of the Union with Jake Tapper" - Transcript: Interview with Nancy Pelosi

Interview

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TAPPER: Hello. I'm Jake Tapper in Washington, where the state of our union is wanting to be a fly on the wall.

President Joe Biden is hosting Democratic Senator Joe Manchin and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer in Delaware today, as Biden puts increased pressure on his party to deliver a deal to upgrade the nation's social safety net and to take steps to combat climate change before Biden leaves for Europe on Thursday.

And Democrats have just seven days until October 31. That's the date that Speaker Nancy Pelosi set to advance President Biden's agenda. At a CNN town hall this week, President Biden expressed confidence his party would deliver.

But while it is now clear the size of the bill, the social policy bill, will be far less than the original $3.5 trillion, it is still not clear what will make it into the final package. Democrats have to make some tough choices about which of their big-ticket items to prioritize and how to pay for it, all to meet the demands of two Democratic senators who have been holdouts, Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona.

Joining us now, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, who is here in studio.

Thanks so much for joining us, Madam Speaker. Appreciate it.

PELOSI: My pleasure to be here. Thank you.

TAPPER: So, how close are you to a deal on this larger package of eldercare, day care, child care, family leave, that stuff, whatever you want to call the bill? The social safety net bill, we call it.

And will President Biden have a deal in hand when he leaves for Europe this week.

PELOSI: Well, first, thank you for the opportunity to talk about that this morning. I'm glad that you talked about COVID in your opening here, because that's how we start all of our meetings: What are we doing to protect the American people to stop the spread of COVID?

And I want to commend President Biden for having a completely different approach than his predecessor on this. We have to correct a lot of what went wrong then. And we're on a good path. And the good news about children being safely able to be vaccinated is something that will help stop the spread.

So, thank you for focusing on that, because that is...

TAPPER: We talk about it every day, all day.

PELOSI: And so do we in the House Democratic Caucus.

TAPPER: Yes.

PELOSI: In terms of where we are, I have said already we have 90 percent of the bill agreed to and written. We just have some of the last decisions to be made.

It is less than we had -- was projected to begin with, but it's still bigger than anything we have ever done in terms of addressing the needs of America's working families. And it is about all that you said in terms of care, the care piece.

But it's also about the climate piece, which is a health issue, a jobs issue, a security issue, and a values issue for us. And we will have something that will help meet the -- that will meet the president's goals.

I feel very confident about that, even though it will be different than what we originally proposed.

TAPPER: By the time he leaves for Europe, do you think you will have a deal by Thursday or Friday?

PELOSI: No, I think we're -- I think we're pretty much there now.

TAPPER: You think you have a deal now?

PELOSI: We're almost -- we just -- it's just the language of it, but it will be -- it will not offend, shall we say, the concern that Senator Manchin had about the CEPP.

But, nonetheless, the point is to reach a goal and the president's goals of reaching the emissions, the pollution and all the rest.

TAPPER: Yes. So...

PELOSI: Because we were prepared with our select committee headed by Kathy Castor, we had other options.

TAPPER: Other ways to pay for it.

PELOSI: No, other ways to -- other ways to reach the goal and, yes, pay for it as well.

TAPPER: So I want to get to that in a second.

But just as a side issue, because there are a lot of people who are very eager for the bipartisan infrastructure bill to come up and be voted on as well -- and progressives have said they're not going to vote for that until there's at least a deal on the larger social safety net bill -- you have said the House must pass the bipartisan infrastructure plan by October 31...

[09:05:00]

PELOSI: ... which is a week from today.

TAPPER: Moderates are frustrated two deadlines have been missed because of the progressives.

Do you -- are you going to meet that goal?

PELOSI: No, wait a minute.

There was no deadline that was missed because of the progressives.

TAPPER: OK.

PELOSI: The deadline was missed because they changed from 3.5 to one- half that. And we have had to go in. It's land meet land. Everything is good in the bill. What do you cut?

TAPPER: OK.

PELOSI: So, in terms of this date, this date is fraught with meaning because, on October 31 is the day that the Highway Trust Fund authorization expires.

TAPPER: Right. PELOSI: And if that expires, we have to get billions of dollars

someplace to continue that. The best way to do that is to pass the BIF, having nothing to do with all the other, shall we say, deliberations that are going on.

Our chair of the committee, Peter DeFazio, who is a master of this, of the Infrastructure -- Transportation Infrastructure Committee, has said we must pass this right by October 31st.

TAPPER: Right.

But the reason I invoked progressives, I'm not blaming anything on them, but I'm just saying they have said, a sizable number of them, enough of them to tank the bill, that they will not vote for the BIF, the bipartisan infrastructure plan...

PELOSI: Right.

TAPPER: ... unless there is this framework agreed to.

PELOSI: No, that's right. You're absolutely right.

TAPPER: So, are you saying, in the next week, the framework will be agreed to or there will be a deal on the social safety net bill?

PELOSI: Let's call it an agreement.

TAPPER: An agreement.

There will be an agreement on that. And you will also vote for the bipartisan infrastructure bill? Both of those things will happen in the next week?

PELOSI: That's the plan.

TAPPER: That's the plan.

PELOSI: And, right now, we are just, as you indicated, the two Senate -- Leader Schumer, Mr. Manchin, Senator Manchin, and the president are having that the meeting on some of the particulars that need to be finalized.

And I'm optimistic that we can do that, because, again, one basket was climate...

TAPPER: Right.

PELOSI: ... which was jobs bill and a bill for the children, for the future, is the health care piece of it, of strengthening the Affordable Care Act, expanding Medicaid and expanding Medicare...

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: So, let's get into it. Let's get into some of these issues, because they're important for people to understand.

PELOSI: And then the third basket, as...

TAPPER: Yes.

PELOSI: ... we're getting into it, just so we have a..

TAPPER: Yes.

PELOSI: The third bucket is the care piece of it.

TAPPER: Care, eldercare, child care.

PELOSI: Child care.

TAPPER: Family leave.

PELOSI: Child care universal pre-K go together. Eldercare -- when we say home health care, that's for elder or children...

TAPPER: Right.

PELOSI: ... or siblings who are disabled or something like that.

TAPPER: So is family leave going to make it into the final bill? Those four weeks of paid family leave, is that going to be in the final bill?

PELOSI: That's our hope, yes.

TAPPER: That's your hope.

PELOSI: That's what we're fighting for. That's what we're fighting for.

TAPPER: So, Senator Sinema, who is a key Arizona Democrat vote in the Senate, Senator Sinema has said she will not support raising the corporate tax rate, raising the tax on high wage earners.

And President Biden has acknowledged that might mean you can't pay for the rest of the bill using those sources of revenue. Do you have an alternate way?

PELOSI: Yes, we do, because we were ready to pay for 3.5.

TAPPER: Right.

PELOSI: So, we certainly can pay for 1-point -- half of that.

TAPPER: And what are -- what is that alternate way? Is it a billionaires tax? Is it a minimum tax for corporations?

PELOSI: Well, the billionaires tax is a -- shall we say, has an appeal, but it doesn't produce that much money.

TAPPER: OK.

PELOSI: It's -- we -- because the bill is not written yet -- we hope it will be written today and introduced tomorrow -- only then can the Joint Tax Committee evaluate what it brings in. We anticipate $200 billion, $250 billion, but we need closer to $2 trillion.

TAPPER: So, where...

PELOSI: So, we have other things.

TAPPER: Such as?

PELOSI: Well, such as, we have enforcement. And that's several hundred billion dollars. We have the overseas harmonization of taxes, and that's a few hundred billion dollars.

We have an array. We have an array. And I'm not going to say what they are right here.

TAPPER: Corporate minimum tax, so that a -- Elizabeth Warren was talking on "THE LEAD" the other day about, if a company like Amazon makes hundreds of millions of dollars, billions of dollars, and pays zero, this would be legislation that requires that they pay something.

Is that in there?

PELOSI: Well, the president during his campaign had a market rate -- excuse me -- a book rate proposal, and that is being evaluated as well as to how much that brings in, but that's another way to tax the increase in wealth in corporate America.

But the thing is, is that whether we use the increase the corporate tax rate, increase in the tax of some the other aspects of it...

TAPPER: Yes, wealth tax, billionaires tax.

PELOSI: Well, no, just some other aspect to it.

TAPPER: OK.

PELOSI: Because we probably will have a wealth tax.

TAPPER: Yes.

PELOSI: But, again, it's only 10 percent of what we -- you need.

And we -- the other things are more like $800 billion vs. $200 billion. But we can use them another time. They don't go away as a source of revenue to pay for how we go forward. And we want to pay for what we do.

TAPPER: But you said you probably will have a wealth tax?

PELOSI: Well, that is -- we will see. We haven't seen the bill yet.

[09:10:00]

TAPPER: Right. And you said also that it's being written right now, and you're going to send it to the... PELOSI: This is a Senate proposal.

TAPPER: OK.

PELOSI: And they supposedly are writing it today. Tomorrow, they would introduce it. And then Tax -- the Joint Tax Committee is the one that says, this is how much you get from that.

But again, on our side, we have been totally ready with alternatives.

TAPPER: Right.

PELOSI: In terms of House and Senate and the White House, we have plenty of alternatives. We're ready.

TAPPER: So, what is your response to progressives who say what "The Washington Post" editorial board said, that Democrats are in danger of breaking the promise to roll back the Trump tax cuts and to fully pay for the plan?

PELOSI: Well, we're going to fully pay for the plan.

TAPPER: You are?

PELOSI: We will probably more than pay for the plan.

And one bill does not make a -- we -- look. Look at what the president has done.

TAPPER: You might still take another crack at getting rid of the Trump...

PELOSI: We had the rescue package, $1.9 trillion. We have the infrastructure bill, over a trillion dollars. That's around $3 trillion. And we will have this at $2 trillion.

Nobody has done anything that remarkable. So, while it isn't everything that was put out originally, it does -- it takes us down a path where we can continue investments in these.

Now, this piece, the care piece that -- I did the climate, health -- the care piece is the -- all three of them make a -- transformative, America's working families.

TAPPER: Yes. It is a big bill.

PELOSI: It's a very big bill.

TAPPER: And it would do -- it would accomplish a lot.

PELOSI: Even at half, it's a very big bill.

TAPPER: So, let me ask you, because one of the questions right now is paid family leave. You said that you hope that that's going to be in there, four weeks of paid family leave...

PELOSI: Yes.

TAPPER: ... and the expansion of Medicare to enjoy -- to include, rather, dental, vision and hearing coverage.

PELOSI: Yes.

TAPPER: Is that going to be in the bill?

PELOSI: Well, that's part of the negotiation.

Dental is very expensive. So, hearing and -- hearing and visual and dental, but dental will take a little longer to implement. But that's part of the negotiation right now.

TAPPER: So, you don't know what's going to be in the final bill?

PELOSI: Well, we will see what...

TAPPER: It sounds like you're saying dental might not make it because it's so expensive.

PELOSI: Well, it will make -- it'll be on a path. It will be on a path.

But what they told us -- and I don't quite understand why, but they have -- we have been told by people who know about these things that it'll take five, six years in order to implement the dental.

TAPPER: Yes.

PELOSI: So, how do we -- how do we, shall we say, fill in the blank there?

Bernie has some suggestions about how to do that. That will be part of the negotiations.

TAPPER: Bernie Sanders, the independent from Vermont.

PELOSI: Bernie Sanders.

TAPPER: Are you frustrated?

I mean, you talk about how you're almost there, except for 10 percent of the bill. And you also talk about how the House is there. You guys are ready. You're going to pass it. And it's really these two Senate holdouts, Sinema and Manchin.

Are you frustrated with them?

PELOSI: Well, I'm respectful of everybody's point of view.

I do not want the Bush tax -- excuse me. I don't want the Trump tax cuts perpetuated. So, I don't want anybody to think, if we don't address those right now, that that's -- they're off the table. No, we will use them for something at some point, because you can't use the wealth tax and tax of billionaires, which is what we should be doing, and let corporate America off the hook.

But corporate America will be paying because of the overseas tax. And some of the other provisions are very technical to go into right now.

TAPPER: Yes.

PELOSI: We will know more tomorrow to see what makes the cut.

TAPPER: What makes the cut.

PELOSI: And then worth it, the time, to go into it.

TAPPER: There's also this issue of the debt ceiling, right?

PELOSI: Yes. Well, that's a different -- that's separate.

TAPPER: It's a separate issue.

But, but in terms of how you get it through the Congress to President Biden's desk, maybe separate, maybe not.

Congress acted to raise the debt ceiling through December 3. After that, Republican leader, Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, says you're on your own, we're not going to provide any votes for Democrats.

A default obviously would be devastating for the American economy, for the world economy. Are you willing to attach raising the debt ceiling to the social safety net package, or, if not, to use reconciliation, which means only 50 votes -- 51 votes needed in the Senate anyway, in order to get this done?

PELOSI: That's one path.

But we're still hoping to have bipartisanship. It seems that the American people should understand that what we're talking about is largely the Trump debt.

TAPPER: Right.

PELOSI: Now, we participated in some of it with COVID and the rest, but we didn't participate in giving a tax scam, 83 percent of the benefits to the top 1 percent that added $2 trillion to the debt.

President -- President Biden's part of this debt is about 3 percent.

TAPPER: Right.

PELOSI: And yet the Republicans, who when President -- the former president was in office, three times, we had to do something about the national debt.

Now, look at what is in jeopardy. Even talking about it is not a good idea, because even placing in doubt whether it...

[09:15:02]

TAPPER: Right.

PELOSI: It's not a good idea, because it can lower the credit rating of our country, as it did when the Republicans did not want to increase it when President Obama was president.

TAPPER: Yes.

PELOSI: It seems they're OK with it when there's a Republican president, but not a Democrat.

Six to seven million jobs could be lost, $15 trillion in household wealth, consequences that could last for decades.

TAPPER: Why not get rid of the debt ceiling?

PELOSI: Well, that's what we have a plan to do as well.

There are a number of plans to do that. But would the Republicans agree to that before we again...

TAPPER: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

PELOSI: ... the debt ceiling.

TAPPER: So your mind is -- your mind is open in terms of whether or not you use reconciliation or whether or not you attach it to the social safety net bill?

PELOSI: Yes.

But we still would rather have bipartisanship, whether it's a Democratic president or Republican president.

TAPPER: Right. But you probably won't have it, so you will consider these options, is all I'm saying.

I want to ask you...

PELOSI: Yes. And it's very, very, very important.

TAPPER: Absolutely.

The House voted on Friday to hold former Trump ally Steve Bannon in criminal contempt of Congress for ignoring a subpoena. Do you think people who refuse to comply with congressional subpoenas should be prosecuted by the Justice Department and, at the end of the day, go to jail?

PELOSI: Yes.

TAPPER: You do?

PELOSI: I do. I do. Well, first of all, this -- people said, well, this hasn't happened

before. We haven't had an insurrection incited by the president of the United States and one of his toadies having knowledge of -- advanced knowledge of that happening.

So, in fact, it's important for a number of reasons. It's important for us to find the truth about what happened on January 6, an assault on our Constitution, our Congress, and out Capitol.

But it's also important to -- in terms of the separation of power and the checks and balances of the Constitution, which is the genius of the Constitution...

TAPPER: Absolutely.

PELOSI: ... for this to happen in this way.

TAPPER: So, you're willing, if the -- if the committee decides to subpoena Trump, you're willing to have that happen too?

PELOSI: I'm not -- they have everything on the table. I don't get involved in the decisions of the committee.

TAPPER: OK.

PELOSI: But when you say, if he should do this and go to jail, well, he will be tried and see what is...

TAPPER: It will be in court, yes, a court hearing.

(CROSSTALK)

PELOSI: I want you to take a listen to a key moment in which President Biden was talking about voting rights in the CNN town hall with Anderson Cooper the other night. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: When it comes to voting rights, just so I'm clear, though, you would entertain the notion of doing away with the filibuster on that one issue? Is that correct?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And maybe more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, that is President Biden saying that he is willing to entertain the notion of getting rid of the filibuster for Voting Rights Act and maybe for other things as well.

Do you agree with him on that one issue that, at the end of the day, having some sort of voting rights bill is more important than preserving the filibuster, at least for that one vote?

PELOSI: The most important vote right now in the Congress of the United States is the vote to respect the sanctity of the vote, the fundamental basis of our democracy, so if there were one vote that the filibuster could enable to go forward, that would be the vote, and enable so much more, because we're talking about stopping the suppression of the vote and the nullification of the elections.

We're talking about redistricting in a way that is fair and may not benefit Democrats, but it might open up some of these Republican seats. It talks about stopping the big, dark, crushing special interest money and empowers the grassroots.

This is -- and then, in addition to that, the Voting Rights Act, the John Lewis Voting Rights -- John Lewis wrote the first 300 pages of the first bill.

TAPPER: Yes.

PELOSI: Mr. Manchin has weighed in. The compromise that they voted on last week is perfectly good. And -- but he didn't get any Republican votes.

But...

TAPPER: So it's worth it to you to...

PELOSI: Well, no, it's fundamental to our democracy.

TAPPER: Right.

PELOSI: It's just fundamental.

Now, mind you, just to remind, when what's-his-name was president and the...

TAPPER: Donald Trump?

PELOSI: ... Republicans were in power. Mitch McConnell pulled back the bill, filibuster, to enable with simple majorities three justices to go to the Supreme Court for life.

You would think that they could pull it back for the American people to have the vote in a way that...

TAPPER: So, you're on board with that as the only thing.

Before...

PELOSI: I'm not only on board. It's the most important vote.

TAPPER: You're leading the way.

PELOSI: It's about our Constitution.

TAPPER: You're not just on board.

Quickly, I do want to ask about your own future in Congress. Are you going to run for reelection?

PELOSI: Oh, you think I'm going to make an announcement right here and now?

TAPPER: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

TAPPER: Why not?

(CROSSTALK)

PELOSI: I will have to be on many more times than that.

TAPPER: You're going to run for reelection, though, yes?

PELOSI: Why would I tell you that now?

Well, it's not just me.

PELOSI: I always...

TAPPER: It's the world. It's an international show.

(LAUGHTER)

PELOSI: Well, probably I would have that conversation with my family first, if you don't mind.

TAPPER: OK.

(LAUGHTER)

TAPPER: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

PELOSI: Thank...

TAPPER: And best of luck with the legislation.

PELOSI: Thank you.

TAPPER: And I know it's a heavy lift.

PELOSI: Thank you. My pleasure to be here. Thank you.

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