MSNBC "The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Adam Schiff
Interview
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And leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff of California. He is a member of the January 6 Select Committee, and he is, of course, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.
Thank you very much for joining us tonight, Congressman Schiff. We always appreciate it.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): Thank you. Great to be with you.
O`DONNELL: So question number one is, is everyone around Rudy Giuliani on January 5th now has been subpoenaed. Steve Bannon, Bernie Kerik, Jason Miller. Why hasn`t Rudy Giuliani been subpoenaed?
SCHIFF: We have subpoenaed records involved in communications between Giuliani and the White House. The fact that he is not in this group of subpoenas shouldn`t imply that we`re not interested in his testimony. But in most investigations, you want to interview people around a particular potential witness, gather the facts from them before you interview perhaps a more important witness.
So I wouldn`t read too much into the fact that he wasn`t on this list. We`re deeply interested in Mr. Giuliani and his pivotal role in this plot to overturn the election. Because obviously he was deeply involved in these bogus legal cases brought around the country and he has very important information the committee wants.
O`DONNELL: Well, one other reason to not subpoena him is that he is cooperating or you have indications that he might cooperate without being subpoenaed.
SCHIFF: Well, I can`t comment on who is cooperating or not cooperating. And so I don`t want to infer one thing or another.
But, look, there are a number of people that are very high level. Frankly, we don`t anticipate are going to be eager to cooperate with the committee. Most people are. Most people are volunteering. We`ve interviewed over 150 people by now.
But there is some by virtue of their past resistance to lawful process that we`re much more skeptical about, and we`ll just have to leave it at that until we can disclose our intentions vis-a-vis Mr. Giuliani.
O`DONNELL: What do you hear in that phone call, that voice mail that we just played. Do you hear the federal crime of election interference and election fraud in that phone call?
SCHIFF: I certainly hear someone who is urging a legislator from the state I guess in that case was it Michigan or Pennsylvania, seeking to overturn the election, implying they have an authority they don`t have. And I think it`s part of the broader plot to overturn the election.
It is shocking to hear that, and listening to that that you just played out really just grabs you and shows just how naked this effort to overturn and corrupt our election process was. But you know what? You know what stands out is that recording of Donald Trump on the phone with Brad Raffensperger trying to get the secretary of state in Georgia find 11,780 votes that don`t exist.
And to me that`s a far more clear indication of criminal activity, and I think had anyone else been recorded on that call, they would be under investigation by the Justice Department by now.
O`DONNELL: We`re going to be reporting more on that Georgia investigation later in the hour because there is new developments in what may be the impaneling of a special grand jury there.
[22:10:04]
But let me ask you about that. "The New York Times" is reporting that there is obviously an overlap between your committee`s investigation and the criminal investigation that`s happening in Atlanta. And that the committee`s investigation has slowed the Atlanta criminal investigation.
What can you tell us about that?
SCHIFF: You know, I`m not aware of that, whether there is anything that our investigation is doing that would inhibit any other investigation, and I would hope that frankly there would be a synergistic relationship between -- to bring out the facts, both civil or criminal. So I`m not aware of that.
And I certainly hope that if we find evidence of criminal activity, that we will disclose-knit the proper manner, just as we did during the Russia and Ukraine investigations when we discovered activity, in some cases it was perjury or what we believe was perjury to our committee, that we would make the appropriate references to the Justice Department.
O`DONNELL: So, Stuart Stevens who worked on Republican presidential campaigns and was the top strategist on some of them said something tonight that I think could be helpful to your investigation. Let`s listen to this.
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STUART STEVENS, FORMER REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: The person, if I was in that I would focus on who I think is the most normal and would feel some genuine patriotic duty to do the right thing is Bill Stepien. If you read these books about the Trump campaign, he is sort of the odd man out and he is sort of the most normal, who`s just trying to do a job as a Republican operative would do.
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O`DONNELL: There is a scene in Bob Woodward and Robert Costa`s book where Bill Stepien goes to the White House oval office to the president to try to tell him that it`s all over. Obviously, that didn`t work.
But that`s Stuart Stevens who knows these players saying you might actually get a fair and honest response from Bill Stepien.
SCHIFF: Well, I hope -- I hope that he is right. And I hope that we do. And I hope that he is Cooperative and meets his lawful obligation to testify and to provide all relevant documents. Many people are. And we rely on that. And for those who don`t, we`re going to rely on the Justice Department to prosecute them.
If we can`t effectuate our subpoenas, we`re no more a real Congress than a court that can`t compel witnesses to testify in a case in that courtroom. So, we`re using all the tools that we have. I hope that he is right about this particular witness, and we can count on their willingness to adhere to the law and testify and do so truthfully and completely.
O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to one of the pieces of evidence that`s actually referred to in your letter -- your community`s letter to Michael Flynn with his subpoena. This is him speaking on December 17th.
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MICHAEL FLYNN, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: The president has a -- and I just mentioned one of the options. He could immediately on his order seize every single one of these machines around the country, on his order. He could also order -- he could order the within the swing states, if he wanted to, he could take military capabilities and he could place them in those states and basically rerun an election in each of those states. I mean, it`s not unprecedented.
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O`DONNELL: What do you want to ask him about that?
SCHIFF: Well, that is just so shocking to hear that tape and to realize that someone who even for a very brief period of time nonetheless was the national security adviser to the president of the United States, and is talking so cavalierly about seizing voting machines and calling out the military really takes your breath away.
So all of what you heard in that clip we`ll want to ask about. We`ll want to know also about a December Oval Office meeting in which he similarly made reference to the president`s ability to declare a national emergency and seize voting machines. All of this is part of the same plot to overturn the election.
They tried it with bogus litigation. They tried it with corralling state legislators. They tried it by urging the vice president to ignore his constitutional duty. And here it appears based on that interview as well as what`s been reported about that December meeting in the oval office, they may have even contemplated using the military.
And the country deserves to know about every element of this plot, who is involved, how far along it went, and what we need to do most importantly to prevent this kind of attack on our democratic process in the future.
O`DONNELL: If you eventually do get Attorney Eastman in front of the committee under oath, he presumably would have strong incentives to take the Fifth Amendment because he`s at risk of losing his law license for the faulty advice that he was giving the president and everything that he created there.
[22:15:17]
Is there any -- is there any way around witnesses invoking the Fifth Amendment with the committee?
SCHIFF: Well, the only way around that is to grant immunity to witnesses. And I don`t want to speak with reference to this particular witness, but this the general, if it came to that, we would have to consider what are the Department of Justice`s equities? Is there any chance the department may wish to prosecute that witness for some underlying crime they committed? We wouldn`t want what we`re doing to interfere with a potential prosecution.
I don`t know that frankly the prospect of his losing -- in the case of Mr. Eastman his law license, something I think the Senate has already urged that there is any way that the Fifth Amendment would -- could be invoked properly in those circumstances. I think it would have to be something that threatened his liberty.
But regardless, we would have to examine any particular circumstances of any given witness.
I`ll say also with respect to Mr. Eastman, publicly in his public pronouncements, he has been all over the map about whether he believed the legal theories he was offering that Mike Pence could use to overturn the election or he didn`t believe them. And we`ll certainly want to know who is in on this, what their understanding was of the bogus nature of that legal argument, and how close they came to trying to coerce the vice president to using it.
O`DONNELL: Congressman Adam Schiff, thank you very much for starting off our discussions tonight. Really appreciate it.
SCHIFF: Thanks, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
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