'This Week' Transcript 2-19-23: Secretary Antony Blinken and Sen. Lindsey Graham

Interview

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We had a very direct, very clear conversation about the Chinese surveillance balloon being sent over our territory in violation of our sovereignty, in violation of international law. I told Wang Yi, my Chinese counterpart, that that action was unacceptable and must never happen again.

We also had an opportunity to talk about the Russian aggression against Ukraine. We're here in Munich, and many of the countries here are focused, as we are, on that aggression. And one of the things that I shared with him was a growing concern on our part that China is considering providing lethal support to Russia and its aggression against Ukraine. And I made clear, as President Biden has, almost from day one with President Xi, that that would have serious consequences in our own relationship.

Finally, it was important for me to underscore the importance of having open lines of communication between us in continuing to engage in direct diplomacy. We have a responsibility to manage the relationship responsibly. I think the world expects that of us. It's also in our interest. And so that's also something I underscored in the meeting with Wang Yi this evening.

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I don't want to characterize what he said to me, Martha, but I think here in Munich too, what we know is, we are not the only ones on the receiving end of the Chinese spy balloons. More than 40 countries have had these balloons go over their territory.

And this goes back some years. This program's been around for a few years. So, there's a real concern that I'm hearing here from other countries, from allies and partners alike, about this program. And I think countries are -- I was going to say pleased, but pleased is the wrong word. They appreciate the fact that we've exposed it.

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Again, I don't want to characterize what he said, but you're -- you're correct.

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Martha, what I can tell you is this. First of all, from day one, almost quite literally because President Biden spoke to President Xi a couple of weeks into the Russian aggression back last March, and said to him that it would be a deep concern to us if China provided lethal support to Russia or helped in the systematic evasion of sanction. And part of that reason for that conversation going back to last March was, just a few weeks before President Putin and President Xi had met and they talked about a partnership with no limits. And we were very concerned that no limits might including significant support to Russia and its aggression.

We've been watching this very, very closely. And, for the most part, China has been engaged in providing rhetorical, political, diplomatic support to Russia, but we have information that gives us concern that they are considering providing lethal support to Russia in the war against Ukraine. And it was important for me to share very clearly with Wang Yi that this would be a serious problem.

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Martha, I can't speak to their original intent. But what I can tell you is this, once over the United States, the balloon attempted to surveil very critical, important military installations. We protected the sensitive information that it was trying to surveil. We, at the same time, got information about the balloon itself as it was traversing the country going west to east. And then, when it was safe to do so, there was no danger to people on the ground, President Biden ordered that it be shot down.

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Martha, here's what's happened. When we began to track the Chinese surveillance balloon, one of the things that we did was to recalibrate our radars and other systems that were looking up in the sky. And as a result, we began to see things that in years past, we simply weren't looking for or looking at, including the objects that were subsequently shot down.

And the difference between the Chinese surveillance balloon and the objects that were shot down afterward is that the Chinese surveillance balloon was flying at about 60,000 feet, did not pose a threat to commercial aviation. The other objects were flying lower, and when we saw them, and within the band that commercial planes might fly in. So the President made a determination that they posed a threat to commercial aviation. And the prudent thing to do was to shoot them down.

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Martha, every step along the way, even going back to before the Russian aggression, we have been providing Ukrainians with what we believe they need to defend themselves and now to take back territory that was seized by force. If you go back before the aggression started when we saw the storm clouds rising --

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No, we're in very close collaboration and coordination with the Ukrainians precisely on this question of what do they need at any given time. But what's very important is this: what we should not do, any of us, is to focus or get fixated on any particular weapons system because the weapon system itself, as important as it is, is not -- is not sufficient. You have to make sure that Ukrainians are trained on the systems that are being provided. You have to make sure that they can maintain them. If they're not trained on them, they can't use them. If they don't know how to maintain them, and they fall apart within a week, it's not going to do a lot of good.

And you also have to make sure that they're using all of these things in a comprehensive way that can be effective on the battlefield. That's been what we've been doing all along.

We're also looking at the next months because what's going on now is this: the Russians are engaged right now in an offensive along the eastern lines trying to push through the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians are holding very strong, the Russians are suffering horrific losses in this effort. Ukraine's also preparing for a counteroffensive in the spring, and the focus has to be on what will they be able to use and use effectively over the next few months, not the next few years, to make the greatest gain possible against the Russian aggression.

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Thank you. Good to be with you.

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