Fox News Sunday - Transcript

Fox News Network

SHOW: FOX NEWS SUNDAY (09:00)

February 22, 2004 Sunday

SECTION: News; Domestic

HEADLINE: Interview With Bill Owens, Bill Richardson, Jennifer Granholm, Haley Barbour

GUESTS: Bill Owens, Bill Richardson, Jennifer Granholm, Haley Barbour

BYLINE: Chris Wallace

BODY:
CHRIS WALLACE, HOST: I'm Chris Wallace. A top U.S. official blames al Qaeda for attacks in Iraq, next on "FOX NEWS SUNDAY."

You decide, 2004: How is the presidential campaign playing out across America? We'll assess the state of the states with some of the nation's most promising governors: Democrats Bill Richardson and Jennifer Granholm, Republicans Haley Barbour and Bill Owens.

Corporate bosses in handcuffs, Martha Stewart in trouble. We'll discuss scandals, the economy, the election and the markets with one of America's top businessmen, Jack Welch, former chairman of General Electric.

Plus, our panel: Brit Hume, Mara Liasson, Bill Kristol and Juan Williams. And our power player of the week draws his own conclusions.

All on the February 22nd edition of "FOX NEWS SUNDAY."

And good morning from Fox News in Washington. Here's a quick check of the latest headlines.

Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, on his way to Kuwait, today blamed al Qaeda terrorists for the ongoing violence in Iraq. Rumsfeld said the attacks are increasingly sophisticated, and that the bin Laden organization is clearly involved.

A suicide bomber blew himself up on a crowded Jerusalem bus this morning, killing at least seven people and wounding 59. The militant Palestinian group, the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, has claimed responsibility.

And a U.S.-led delegation has left Haiti without a deal to stop the violence there. President Jean-Bertrand Aristide said he is willing to share power, but leaders of an armed rebellion demand that he must step down.

Well, the nation's governors are meeting this week here in Washington, and we've invited four of the best and brightest to assess the state of the states and the nation in this election year. First, Democrats Bill Richardson of New Mexico and Jennifer Granholm of Michigan, and Republicans Haley Barbour of Mississippi and Bill Owens of Colorado.

And welcome to all of you. Good to have you all here today.

GOV. JENNIFER GRANHOLM (D), MICHIGAN: Thank you.

WALLACE: Governor Granholm, let's start with jobs and the economy. Michigan has lost almost a quarter of a million jobs since Mr. Bush became president, but doesn't that have a lot more to do with recession and with lower wages overseas than it does with any of the president's policies?

GRANHOLM: Well, I think very clearly we need a president that's going to stand up for leveling the playing field in international trade. International trade policy occurs from Washington. If we are giving points to the other team, allowing us to subsidize the hemorrhaging of jobs, that really comes right from the president.

I would like to see a president stand up and make sure that the trade agreements that we sign have core labor and environmental standards, that we are not allowing the manipulation of currency that ends up hurting our businesses and our job providers, that we are not allowing other countries to put up non-tariff trade barriers. That all happens in Washington.

Michigan has really lost 300,000 jobs since the president was elected. And we need to have a president -- and I hope President Bush is right, that he will create a lot of jobs. No one wants that more than me, because we are really seeing the impact. But we need a president who's going to stand up for leveling the playing field.

WALLACE: Governor Barbour, let me ask you about that. I mean, there is a lot of criticism -- the Democrats are making a big deal about rewriting or enforcing trade agreements. On the other hand, how do you combat when a job here may be $20, $30 an hour and overseas it's $5 an hour?

GOV. HALEY BARBOUR (R), MISSISSIPPI: Well, I think the first thing we have to understand about job loss is that George Bush became president, the economy had been sinking before he became president. We went officially into recession within a few weeks of his becoming president.

And because he took action, because he gave tax cuts to small businesses, who create most of the jobs in the United States, both in terms of cutting rates and increasing the investment they can make on a tax favored way, we had the shortest, most shallow recession.

And coming out of that recession has been slow. The economy is growing, but jobs haven't been created because American businesses are becoming more and more and more productive.

Now we're starting, in my state at least, to see that we've turned the corner and that that economic growth is starting to generate jobs. I think the second tax cut really helped in that regard.

It's interesting to me, now, you hear some Democrats talking about, "Well, we need to have tax cuts for job creation." Well, thank goodness we've had tax cuts for job creation, or otherwise we would've had a really serious, deep recession with the kind of terrorism problems we had and all the other external events that George Bush has helped manage us through with the right policies.

WALLACE: Governors Richardson and Owens, why don't you get in here. Is the Bush administration doing enough to stop jobs from going overseas?

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: No. I think what is needed here is policy that does not have these huge deficits -- huge deficits; policies that spur employment in our country.

I mean, look, that remark about the chairman of the economic advisers saying that we outsource jobs. You know, there's a perception out in the country, in my state, that the president is interested in jobs in hospitals and roads in Iraq but somehow not at home.

And I've been around a long time. I've never seen the states and the federal government so estranged. Basically, the federal government, the administration is saying to the states, "On education, you're on your own. On No Child Left Behind, you're on your own. On issues relating to Medicaid and Medicare, you're on your own." So...

WALLACE: Let me bring Governor Owens in here.

GOV. BILL OWENS (R), COLORADO: Well, I guess -- Bill and I are good friends, but I have a totally different perspective. Education spending up 43 percent under this president.

I don't feel estranged from the White House, and I don't think most governors do.

WALLACE: Well, he's a Democrat, and you're a Republican.

OWENS: Well, I understand that.

(LAUGHTER)

What I've seen is productivity at a 50-year record high. I see unemployment today still high but lower than the average of the 1970s, '80s and '90s. I see job growth in January the greatest in five years. I see this American economy coming back strong.

Because of the tax cuts -- and Bill cut taxes in New Mexico, but what I find interesting is Democratic candidates for president want to increase taxes at precisely the point in time when lower taxes are spurring this economy.

So I'm very pleased at where we are. We still have some ways to go.

WALLACE: But let me ask you, Governor Barbour, about this. We had, and there was a reference to it by Governor Richardson, the statement by Gregory Mankiw, the president's chief economist, that outsourcing is good for the economy in the long run. He was making an economist point.

And then you had the president's own job forecast of 2.5 million new jobs this year. The president had to back off it.

Has the administration lost some credibility on the job issue?

BARBOUR: Look, the American people are going to judge job creation by what actually happens, not by what somebody predicts. I mean, there's a reason that one of the great jokes about economists is that a busload of economists ran off a cliff and the bad news is that there was one empty chair.

(LAUGHTER)

So what economists say -- everybody is politics is used to them stepping on their feet. But the test is what really happens.

And we've turned a corner in my state. I think we've turned a corner in this country. And the productivity gains that made it harder to create jobs, now businesses are finding that to meet the demand for their goods and services, they're hiring more people. That's good.

GRANHOLM: But the reality is, Chris, you've got to come to the states where it is really happening.

In my state, we just had a company last week say 2,700 jobs in a town of 8,000 -- that's like a nuclear bomb going off -- are moving to Mexico, even though we offered zero taxes -- zero taxes -- for 20 years. We gave them a new plant. The UAW came up with concessions of $32 million a year, unprecedented.

But the company, Electrolux, chose to go to Mexico because they could pay people a $1.57 an hour. How are we supposed to compete with that when we have zero taxes...

WALLACE: But how is any president going to be able to solve that?

GRANHOLM: That's why...

WALLACE: You can rewrite a trade agreement, but that isn't going to make wages the same in Mexico as they are in Michigan.

GRANHOLM: No, clearly not, but why are we subsidizing the job losses? Why aren't we providing incentives for manufacturers to stay here? Why don't we enter trade agreements that have, at least, basic core labor and environmental standards, so that you do level the playing field?

We don't need a mission on Mars; we need a mission on manufacturing in this country.

WALLACE: Let me switch, if I can, slightly, to the issue of deficits, if I can, Governor Owens. In Colorado, you're facing a serious budget crisis. You're looking to make hundreds of billions of dollars of cuts in your state budget.

Hasn't the big federal deficit ended up shifting costs to the states?

OWENS: Well, first of all, and in terms of -- it is important to remember on the trade agreements, that was signed by President Clinton, backed by John Kerry, and actually, because it's a presidential election year, we're starting to see a little bit of a shift when it comes to trade.

In terms of deficits, this is a president that confronted a national recession that started before his term in office, compounded by September 11th and the war against terrorism.

The first priority of the federal government is to provide for the national defense. The federal government has been doing that at some significant cost.

WALLACE: But has the practical effect been to shift costs to the states?

OWENS: Our federal aid, as I believe in all states, is actually going up. This federal budget isn't declining; it's actually going up. It's going up in education, it's going up in transportation. Federal dollars are coming to the states. It is a fact. We always have more needs than the dollars that are there to pay for them.

WALLACE: Governor Richardson, you look like you're coming out of your seat.

RICHARDSON: No, I -- and Governor Owens is a neighbor and a good friend too, but, you know, we are not getting the response from the federal government. When it comes to education, I don't see where that increase is coming, because we get a lot of mandates, we get a lot of restrictions.

And some of the No Child Left Behind initiatives are good. They involve testing. But when you don't have any resources -- on homeland security, the money is coming in, but slowly.

On Medicaid, this is the most explosive growth of any program. And basically the federal government is saying, "You're on your own, state." And when it comes to flexibility, we're not getting it.

WALLACE: I want to switch subjects, and I want to stay with you, Governor Richardson, to talk about a very different subject.

On Friday, a county clerk in your state started issuing licenses for same-sex marriages before the attorney general stood in, came in and stopped it.

With what's going on in San Francisco, in Massachusetts, at least for a few hours in New Mexico, why shouldn't the U.S. Congress, the government amend the Constitution to prevent what could be a chaotic situation?

RICHARDSON: Well, that's an issue that belongs with the states. It does not belong with the federal government. In my case...

WALLACE: But don't you have a problem if a couple is married in your state but not married in Governor Owens's?

RICHARDSON: Well, but our state attorney general has deemed this illegal. I support this.

At the same time, in my state, we have a lot of protections for gay and lesbians in many areas of housing and insurance, as it should be.

But we don't need to make this into a wedge issue, and it's becoming a wedge issue. What I think is, the state should decide, the court should decide, and we don't need the sacred Constitution being dealt with again on an issue that is so divisive and an issue that doesn't belong in the Constitution.

WALLACE: Governor Barbour, let me ask you just something about it, because, if there's one thing that I know you believe in in Mississippi, it's states' rights. Why not leave this up to the states?

BARBOUR: Well, here's the facts of this: Under the Constitution, we -- the Supreme Court of Massachusetts, by a 4-3 vote, recognizes a marriage, and all the rest of the states are supposed to recognize that. That's why the federal government's got to do this.

I'm crazy about Bill Richardson. We've been friends a long time.

WALLACE: I love the way that you all say, "I'm crazy about him," and then stick in the shiv.

(LAUGHTER)

BARBOUR: No, look, the Republicans -- nobody's making this a wedge issue. A court in Massachusetts handed down a decision that has practical effects.

Now, I haven't had the experience that Bill's had of some guy going out and marrying a bunch of homosexual couples, but we have a Defense of Marriage Act in my state that's supported by Democrats and Republicans, and the federal government is going to have to allow us to enforce it. That's the situation.

WALLACE: I'm going to...

BARBOUR: And I'd be interested in what Senator Kerry wants to do about it, since it's his home state.

WALLACE: All right, we have a little bit of time left, and I have individual questions to ask some of you. And I'm going to start with you, Governor Owens.

There are terrible allegations against the University of Colorado football program, allegations of rape, allegations of using sex to recruit players.

Is there anything you can do as governor to step into this situation?

OWENS: Well, I obviously have. I have been working both directly and indirectly to get to the bottom of this.

It's a real embarrassment for a fine institution. This institution has done an outstanding job of educating generations of Colorado's students. We're very concerned about what has apparently happened within the university program...

WALLACE: So what do you do, though? In other words, how do you stop -- you say it's a fine program, but apparently, allegedly...

OWENS: Well, I said the education is a fine component, but the football has in fact been an embarrassment. And, as governor, we have a separately elected board of regents in Colorado that runs that particular university.

But I've been very aggressive in calling upon the university and its president to get to the bottom of these allegations. And there actually may be more that I'll be doing in the very near future.

WALLACE: Can you give us a hint?

OWENS: I can't, but I'm discussing it with my attorney general and others, in terms of what the next step might be.

WALLACE: Some kind of outside investigation?

OWENS: Won't comment on that.

WALLACE: All right.

Let me ask you, if I can, the two Democrats here, it appears -- Fox News has been reporting all weekend that Ralph Nader is going to run as an independent for president.

And let me ask you first, Governor Richardson, why?

RICHARDSON: It's his personal vanity, because he has no movement, nobody's backing him. The Greens aren't backing him. His friends urge him not to do it. It's all about himself.

Now, Ralph's made some great contributions to consumer issues over the years, but clearly it's not going to help us. I don't think he'll have a sizable impact, but it's terrible if he goes ahead, because it's about him, it's about his ego, it's about his vanity, and not about a movement that supposedly he headed for many years very effectively.

WALLACE: Governor Granholm, as a practical matter, how much do you think that Nader's getting into the race, if he does, is going to hurt the Democrats?

GRANHOLM: Well, of course we've got the experience of last time, and many would say that his candidacy gave the presidency to George Bush.

I think that his supporters would find a home in the Democratic Party and would feel very comfortable with the Democratic candidates.

So, I don't know why this is happening, but I do know that we are very determined as Democrats to take back the White House, and we're certainly hopeful that this is not an impediment.

WALLACE: And, Governor Barbour, before moving to Mississippi, you may remember that you were a big-time lobbyist here in Washington for the tobacco industry and utilities and a lot of other companies.

The Democrats are making a big deal in this campaign about special interests. Do special interests get a bad rap?

BARBOUR: Well, you know, the Democrats never make a big deal about liberal special interests. You know, you can have all these the Sierra Club or the labor unions and -- they got just as much right to have a voice and to be represented and to petition the government to address (ph) their grievances as anybody else does.

But let's don't act like special interests are some conservative group or some business group or the NRA. Special interests are very liberal groups: environmental groups, labor groups.

And, you know, most everybody in America, when you get down to it, belongs to one special interest or another, and lots of them belong to several special interests.

But this election isn't going to be decided by special interests. It's going to be decided by issues, and that's the way it ought to be.

And I don't think the American people want to elect the ideological twin of Teddy Kennedy. I mean, this may be the taller, thinner version of Teddy Kennedy...

(LAUGHTER)

... but the voting records are just alike. In fact, Kerry is probably the more liberal senator from Massachusetts.

WALLACE: I have to say, you have not lost anything off your fastball since you were the head of the Republican Party.

(LAUGHTER)

I want to thank you all, Democrats Richardson and Granholm and Republicans Barbour and Owens, for coming here today. I understand you're all having dinner at the White House tonight, and I hear the food's pretty good.

(LAUGHTER)

So thank you for coming to Washington...

RICHARDSON: Thank you, Chris.

WALLACE: ... and coming to "FOX NEWS SUNDAY." We appreciate it.

Coming up, have corporate scandals dampened confidence in the economic recovery? We'll talk with one of America's most successful businessmen. That's next.