CNN Crossfire - Transcript

CNN

SHOW: CNN CROSSFIRE 16:30

HEADLINE: Dean Falling, Kerry Rising in New Hampshire

GUESTS: Zoe Lofgren, Ed Markey

BYLINE: Tucker Carlson, Paul Begala

HIGHLIGHT:
Howard Dean's campaign needs a fast cure for falling poll numbers in New Hampshire, while John Kerry is riding high.

BODY:
CARLSON: Congressman Markey, thanks a lot for joining us.

I think Senator Kerry is a pretty serious guy, you know. He hasn't been acting like one recently, though. I've been to three Kerry speeches in the last 48 hours and I've seen him do the exact same thing, including last night here on the stage. He kind of struts around the stage preening. And then he attacks the president for wearing a flight suit on the aircraft carrier, essentially saying, you know: I'm a tough guy. He was just playing dress-up.

It is so third grade and embarrassing. I can't imagine why someone like you, an adult, hasn't told him to stop it. Why haven't you?

(LAUGHTER)

REP. ED MARKEY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Well, I don't think you're looking at the same John Kerry that the people in Iowa saw and the people in New Hampshire saw.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Why doesn't he attack Bush's policies? Why does he attack his clothes? Don't you think that's kind of childish?

MARKEY: I think he does.

But what he's saying is that, if the Republicans decide, if the Bush administration decides to attack John Kerry or the Democrats on the issue of national security or homeland security, thinking it will deflect attention to-from the Bush administration's health care...

CARLSON: Right.

MARKEY: ... education, economic policy...

CARLSON: I understand.

MARKEY: ... then all John Kerry is saying is, bring it on.

CARLSON: But that's fair. But that's fair. I understand that. But they not attacking his

(CROSSTALK)

MARKEY: That he welcomes a discussion on national security.

CARLSON: They're not attacking his clothing. And he's responding by saying, oh, he was playing dress-up. Why doesn't he just seriously, in a substantive way, address the problems he has with Iraq?

MARKEY: Well, the point is, again, that John Kerry has to get out this message honestly that he was a winner of the Silver Star and the Bronze Star in Vietnam. This is not-was not well known before the Iowa caucus.

And once people know that, then his credibility on these issues of national security and homeland security rise into the 70s in terms of his favorability. And the more he gets that message out-and that's really all part of it-is, then he's freer to take the traditional Democratic positions on health care, education, the environment, job creation, that, thus far, the Republican-the Bush administration has escaped scrutiny.

So, he's not doing anything that George Bush didn't do in landing on that aircraft carrier. But look at-while he was landing on that aircraft carrier, there were seven million Americans trying to land a job. And that's the point that John Kerry is trying to make as a metaphor in terms of his military service.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Let me bring Congresswoman Lofgren into this.

First, thanks for joining us. Good to see you again.

You're supporting Governor Dean.

REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D), CALIFORNIA: I am.

BEGALA: I have talked to a bunch of his supporters since his poor performance in Iowa. And some blame the media. Some blame me. Some blame me Tucker. Some blame his opponents, including Congressman Gephardt, who is now out of the race. Does Howard Dean understand that he blew it in Iowa?

LOFGREN: Well, we all wish that he had won. But...

BEGALA: But he messed it up.

LOFGREN: Yes.

BEGALA: He had the largest, strongest organization.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: He had the wind at his back, and he blew it. Does he understand that?

LOFGREN: I think he does.

And I think the race is wide open here in New Hampshire. About half of the voters haven't made up their mind yet. And, believe me, it would be fun to be in California-it's 60 degrees today-instead of here.

(LAUGHTER)

LOFGREN: But I think it's essential that Dean be listened to by voters here in these closing days. I will support whoever the nominee is.

But I think that, unless we have Howard Dean as our nominee, we're going to be in real trouble in winning this election. As Eddie knows, somebody with our voting record is going to have a real hard time getting votes in West Virginia and western Pennsylvania and Ohio. And Dean has the kind of record where it's progressive on health care. I got an F-minus from the NRA. You have to work for the minus. He got an A rating from the NRA five times in a row. And I've had members tell me...

BEGALA: You know, he never mentioned that in Iowa.

LOFGREN: That's right.

BEGALA: Why?

LOFGREN: I don't know.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Does he mention it here?

LOFGREN: It's certainly not a secret to the voters of New Hampshire.

But I'm here because I'm afraid, if we end up with someone who has a voting record like mine, we're going to end up losing to George Bush...

CARLSON: But...

LOFGREN: ... in November.

CARLSON: Congresswoman, I'm losing track of who Howard Dean is. I thought I knew who he was, having watched him for the last year.

Now, all of a sudden, we learned that he's not angry, as we were saying a minute ago, before you came on. He's in fact a deeply sensitive, caring man. We're also learning that-I thought he grew up in this sort of affluent, privileged atmosphere on Park Avenue in New York. Not so, according to his latest campaign commercials, one that leads this way.

I'm going to quote-quote-"He took classes at night to get into medical school."

LOFGREN: Right.

CARLSON: It doesn't mention that was after he came back from skiing for a year at Aspen and going to Yale.

(LAUGHTER)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: Do you think this works, with five days left to go before the voting, that, all of a sudden, he's a completely different person than he was?

LOFGREN: Well, I've gotten to know him in the last year. And he actually is someone who's very comfortable with who he is.

A lot has been made of this speech. And I want to mention it, because I know a couple of people who were in the hall with the several thousand volunteers. They loved it, because it was directed to them to thank them and pump them up for what they had done. And they were stunned when they found out later that it was poorly received, because it was an over-the-top, you know, rally speech that doesn't really come across on TV.

The person I've known for the last year is someone who's very level-headed, who's very focused, who's a doctor, who's strategic, who's the only governor. And, frankly, this country does not elect sitting senators to the White House. The last one was 1960. We don't elect generals to the presidency. The last one was 1956. We elect vice presidents, we reelect presidents, and we elect governors. So I'm very fearful.

I mean, I will support our nominee, whoever it is. But I am fearful that, if it is not Governor Dean, we're going down to a big loss.

CARLSON: So Sharpton

(CROSSTALK)

MARKEY: Can I just say for one second that-no, can I just say this?

(CROSSTALK)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: How does-how do you respond to that in this way? Your candidate, senator from your state, you're a Bay State man yourself, Massachusetts, liberal. That goes together in the public mind, at least in the political mind of my friend Karl Rove, the other guys running Bush's campaign. They're going to paint John Kerry as a Massachusetts liberal. How does he respond?

MARKEY: Well, he'll respond in this way, that Fritz Hollings, the senior senator from South Carolina, endorsed John Kerry today.

BEGALA: Did they have a translator there to...

MARKEY: Well...

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: He's a very elegant man, but he speaks

(CROSSTALK)

MARKEY: Is that for Fritz Hollings to understand us from Massachusetts or the other way around?

(LAUGHTER)

MARKEY: So, what John Kerry is bringing to this campaign is someone who an African-American, Harold Ford from Tennessee, can endorse, that Fritz Hollings, the senior member of the Democratic Party in the South and South Carolina, the toughest state to win a seat in, is endorsing him today.

And it's reflecting John's military record, his record on homeland security, and the totality of his record on all of the range of domestic issues that Democrats traditionally win on. But most people believe that John is going to be able to successfully straight- arm the Republicans when they come in with their historic attack on-on security issues, and then go to our strength.

And if we don't have someone like that, then we won't be able to win. And so our belief is that-and, by the way, on this other issue of senators vs. governors, John F. Kennedy was a senator, Lyndon Johnson was a senator, and Al Gore was a senator. And they all won-they all won the popular-they all won the popular vote.

(CROSSTALK)

MARKEY: And Jimmy Carter...

(APPLAUSE)

MARKEY: Jimmy Carter was not a governor. He was a former governor when he ran. So, over the last 40 years, three former senators-three senators and two governors. So this whole idea that a senator can't win is absolutely historically inaccurate.

LOFGREN: No, but sitting senators.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: We're going to pick up that argument in just a second. But both of you, keep your seats, because Howard Dean told "USA Today"-quote-"You're now going to see the real me." Well, what was he before? We will ask our guests just ahead.

And then after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on efforts to regain contact with the Mars rover Spirit.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're joining you live from Exeter, New Hampshire.

It is five days until the New Hampshire primary. And Howard Dean's poll numbers are dropping faster than the temperature here after sunset. It is really remarkable. Is the Democratic nomination now John Kerry's to lose? That's our debate.

Our guests, California Congresswoman and Dean supporter Zoe Lofgren and her colleague and Kerry supporter and Massachusetts Congressman Ed Markey. They join us.

BEGALA: Congresswoman Lofgren, it is wicked cold, as I guess they say up here.

LOFGREN: It is.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: But I want to ask you your assessment of Tucker's-Governor Dean apparently-certainly told "USA Today," "Now you're going to see the real me." I thought he told us all through this election in Iowa and before that he was unvarnished and unscripted. Was he being phony then and now we're getting the real deal?

LOFGREN: No, no.

But I think he was-he was busy standing up against the president, making sure that everyone knew that he was a guy who was willing to stand up to the president. And he wasn't talking as much as I wish he had about his positive vision for the country and what he did when he was governor that he'd like to replicate here in the whole country, in terms of health care for young people, prescription drug benefits for seniors. He balanced the budget in Vermont. And we have now, according to C.Q., a projected $7 trillion deficit.

So that's very important to me. And the-and people are responding. And we have received almost $700,000 in contributions to the Dean campaign since Monday. It was seven-no, eight-New Hampshire newspapers have endorsed Dean since Monday. So, you know, the media's job is to spin and make news. And I understand that. But-but the people themselves are very enthused. It's very exciting.

CARLSON: Now, Congressman Markey, I think that Senator Kerry has an impressive command of the English language. His grammar is perfect. But he's long-winded. His sentences are too long. His speeches are too long.

Everybody I've spoken to, reporters, his supporters, people on his campaign, has said that he needs to get more self-discipline in his speaking style. Do you agree with that, A? And, B, why hasn't someone told him, make it crisp?

MARKEY: Well, here's the point. In Iowa and New Hampshire...

CARLSON: Yes.

MARKEY: People were going with the doctor. Then they decided to get a second opinion.

CARLSON: Yes.

MARKEY: And they took a look at John Kerry and his speaking style. They liked it, and in overwhelming numbers in Iowa.

(CROSSTALK)

MARKEY: Well, but he then, with this speaking style that you don't seem to like, he won a landslide in Iowa. He's now pulled into the lead here. JohnKerry.com had more hits in the last 48 hours than Google, in terms of people

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Wait. What's that Web site again?

(LAUGHTER)

MARKEY: JohnKerry.com, more hits than Google.

And like Howard Dean, he is now an Internet candidate, raising money. And-and I think his message is being heard. And the pundits, the scream I think that Howard Dean let out was in sympathy with all the pundits whose prediction that John Kerry's campaign had gone up in smoke was wrong.

CARLSON: You may be right.

MARKEY: And he was just reflecting their anguish.

CARLSON: Unfortunately, we're out of time.

MARKEY: At being so wrong.

CARLSON: That is a fascinating theory. We'll have to ask Governor Dean when he comes on our show.

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: Congressman Ed Markey, Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren of California, thanks a lot for joining us. We appreciate it.

MARKEY: Thank you.

LOFGREN: Thank you.