MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
What"s the Republican plan if they take back power in Congress? Do they have any real plans to cut spending?
Indiana Congressman Mike Pence is the Republican Conference chairman, the number-three leader in the House of Representatives.
Congressman, thank you for joining us.

REP. MIKE PENCE ®, INDIANA: Hi, Chris.

MATTHEWS: I want you to listen to your colleagues, Congressman Pete Sessions and Senator John Cornyn. They were with David Gregory on "Meet the Press" yesterday. Let"s listen to what they said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "MEET THE PRESS")

DAVID GREGORY, MODERATOR, "MEET THE PRESS": What painful choices are Republicans prepared to make? Are they going to campaign on repealing health care, for instance, repealing financial regulation? Would you like to see those two things done?

REP. PETE SESSIONS ®, TEXAS: Well, first of all, let"s go right to it. We"re going to balance the budget.
(CROSSTALK)

GREGORY: How do you do it? Tell me how you do it? Name a painful choice the Republicans are prepared to say we have to make.

SESSIONS: Well, first of all, we need to make sure that as we look at all that we are spending in Washington, D.C., with not only the entitlement spending, but also the bigger government, we cannot afford anymore. We have to empower the free enterprise system. See, this is where...

GREGORY: Congressman, these are not specifics.

SESSIONS: We need to go back to the exact same agenda that is empowering the free enterprise system, rather than diminishing it.

GREGORY: Senator, I"m sorry. I"m not hearing an answer on specific -
what painful choices to really deal with the deficit. Is Social Security on the table?

SEN. JOHN CORNYN ®, TEXAS: Well, the president has a debt commission that reports December the 1st.

My hope is they will come back with a bipartisan solution to the debt and particularly entitlement reform, as you mention. But I...

GREGORY: But wait a minute. Conservatives need a Democratic president"s debt commission to figure out what it is they would want to cut?

CORNYN: I say we need to do this on a bipartisan basis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, Congressman Pence, I would like to follow up on that.
What are the Republican plans? You have a good shot at taking back the House of Representatives. Do you have an agenda for balancing the budget?

PENCE: We sure do. Different than Democrats in Congress this year, Republicans passed a budget last year that actually would reduce deficits by $5 trillion over 10 years and reduce federal spending by $3 trillion. That was in the budget that we passed.

We had a stimulus alternative that cost half as much as the president"s. And, according to their economic analysis, it would have created twice as many jobs. We had alternatives on health care, alternatives on energy. And as we go forward with the solutions that we have been offering, Chris, those are going to be a big, big part of the conversation we have with the American people going forward.

MATTHEWS: Well, the big problem, as you and I know, Congressman, and nobody wants to say what they want to cut. It"s always Alphonse and Gaston: You tell me.

The Republican Party I grew up with was the party of fiscal responsibility. So, it seems to me your party could take the lead here and say what you want to cut. Do you want to cut in the entitlements? Where? Medicare? Social Security? Where in the discretionary domestic spending?
Where in Defense? Where in foreign aid?

Give me about three or four, even one or two, big-chunk ways to reduce a $1.6 trillion deficit.

PENCE: Well, right. That"s $1.6 trillion this year. It"s the second year in a row the deficits have been over a trillion.

Some of that, I admit, was inherited by the economic and the bailout policies of the last administration. But, look, again, Republicans went on the record last year. We committed to a 10-year budget that was--had $5 trillion less in deficits, $3 trillion less in spending.

For my part, I have co-authored with Jeb Hensarling of Texas a spending limit amendment to the Constitution. You know, getting spending under control begins with electing a party that wants to get spending under control.
Since the Democrats took control of the Congress, Chris, there"s been an 84 percent increase in non-defense discretionary spending. Now, the president wants to freeze it at that level. But that"s freezing it at an 84 percent increase.

We need--we need to set goals. They need to be serious goals. And then we need to be prepared to do the hard work on--on everything in this budget through fiscal restraint and reform to bring our federal budget within its means and within the means of the American people.

MATTHEWS: I sympathize with you, Congressman, but you"re the party of fiscal responsibility. The people watching and listening right now on radio or on television, who are listening now, where do you want to cut the federal budget? Give me some programs you want to cut.

PENCE: Well, look, I mean in the category of discretionary spending, I personally have associated myself with hundreds of billions of dollars of wasteful government programs, you know, whether it be defense spending, intelligence spending, all the security issues, or whether it be traditional discretionary spending or whether it be entitlement reform.

Republicans have really a long record of proposals that we have embraced over the years that--that we"re prepared to move on. But, again, I think it all really begins with electing a majority in Congress that wants to get federal spending under control.

This president and this Congress have us on a pathway for $1 trillion deficits as far as the eye can see. And the American people have had it, Chris. They feel like Washington is out of touch.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

PENCE: They"re not making the hard decisions.
And, as I said, Republicans committed to a budget last year that would put $5 trillion less on the deficit, $3 trillion less in spending. And we"re willing and ready, if awarded with the ability to lead this Congress again, we"re ready to go to work on that and put the American people"s money where our mouth is.

MATTHEWS: Right. But, you know, that cartoon--you know we grew up with "Popeye." And there was the character in "Popeye" named Wimpy. And he would always say, I will gladly pay you on Tuesday for a hamburger today.
You"re asking for control of Congress today on the promise--promissory note that you will come up with actual program cuts. Now, I keep throwing out--you know the biggest causes of the deficit. You"re more well-read on this than I am. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid--you put all the federal receipts we commit and taxes, and they all could just be gone right there, exhausted in those three programs. We got defense systems you could name.

But nobody wants to name what they want to cut by name, do they?
Isn"t that fair to say on both parties?

PENCE: Well, it may be fair towards some members of Congress. But, again, I hasten to add Republicans--and it is astonishing to me the Democrat majority did not even try to pass a budget this year. But last year, Republicans adopted a budget that had $3 trillion in spending cuts in it, and that would be cuts in discretionary spending, and it also would be cuts through reforms of entitlements.

I think, you know, it"s all going on the table.

MATTHEWS: OK.

PENCE: I understand the politics of saying, well, name this, name that program. But I can tell you, take a look at the Republican budget last year, Republicans have been on the record about--about rolling back this runaway freight train of spending that frankly begun under the last Republican administration, has been put on steroids under this one. The American people want to get federal spending under control and as our budget shows, we"re ready to do it.

MATTHEWS: OK. See that--that"s a good headline. The Democrats and Republicans on steroids when it comes to spending, I know with the promise cuts.
Let me ask you about this extension of unemployment right now.

PENCE: Yes.

MATTHEWS: The president is pushing for it and you party says he"s not willing to pay for it. What is going to happen to those unemployed people? What should happen to them?

PENCE: Well, what should happen to them--

MATTHEWS: They"re not going to get benefits.

PENCE: Well, no--what should happen to them is we should extend unemployment benefits, but we ought to pay for it, Chris. I mean, Republicans will offer an alternative.

MATTHEWS: OK. What will you cut--

PENCE: The stimulus bill.

MATTHEWS: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: Our alternative said you take $34 billion in unspent stimulus funds. I mean, the American people know the stimulus bill has utterly failed. So, why don"t we take $34 billion out of the stimulus funds that hasn"t been spent and use that to pay to help Americans who are the victims of these--the failed policies of this and frankly the previous administration?
I mean, this economy is struggling. The American people want us to get this economy moving again. But we need to help people at the point of need. We just got to pay for it.

I mean, when I"m home, people are saying, for heaven"s sake, we"ve got to see job creation. We got to have economic policies that work. But we"ve also got to get spending under control.

We can do that. Take the unspent stimulus funds, $34 billion, provide that in unemployment benefits to Americans that are hurting, and then let"s try some new economic policies that will release the inherent power of this economy.

MATTHEWS: Right now, it looks to me like we all look at this big Niagara Falls coming at the end here. At some point, the Congress is going to have to decide what to do with the Bush tax cuts, especially for the upper income people. And I know the very upper income people pay a lot of taxes. We all know that.

Is it your party"s position right now, Congressman Pence, that you"re going to try to keep the Bush tax cuts for the very wealthy, even at the time you"re saying no extensive unemployment? And even though both factors could lead to a higher deficit, you"re going to lean towards keeping tax cuts for the rich, but lean hard against extending unemployment benefits? You"re comfortable fighting this next election on that line: keeping the Bush tax cuts for the rich, avoiding extending unemployment benefits for the working poor. You"re comfortable fighting this election on that issue?

PENCE: No, I"m comfortable fighting this election on being the party that wants to pay for unemployment benefits by making sure--

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: But what about the tax cuts?

PENCE: Absolutely. Let me be as clear as a bell on HARDBALL. House Republicans are determined to fight and to oppose the largest tax increase in American history with everything we"ve got.

MATTHEWS: OK.

PENCE: I don"t know anybody back in Indiana, or anywhere across the country that thinks allowing the largest tax increase in history to take effect in January makes any sense in getting this economy moving again.

MATTHEWS: OK. These are great rhetoric. And I understand the business everybody is in. We"re in journalism, too. You like hyped-up words, too. But you use the words like steroids and largest tax cuts in history.
But the bottom line is, your party position going into this election is no extensive unemployment benefits unless cuts are made elsewhere. And yet, you will not stop--in other words, you will continue the Bush tax cuts for the very wealthy at the cost of a higher deficit.

That"s fair enough, isn"t it? That"s a fact.

PENCE: I don"t know--I don"t know--I don"t know anybody who thinks that they pay too little in taxes. I don"t know anybody who thinks that by raising taxes in January, they"re going to create jobs. I mean, come on, Chris. This is--

MATTHEWS: Well, you got me there. Nobody wants to pay taxes. Let me ask you this: what"s the unemployment--

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: The administration may think that raising taxes in January is a pathway to prosperity. But I would venture to guess--almost every American knows you don"t raise taxes during a recession.

MATTHEWS: OK, with a guy making $10 million a year is going to keep his tax cut. And the guy who"s hoping to get unemployment comp this week isn"t gong to get it because the Republican leaders, and I understand that"s your position.

What"s the unemployment rate in Indiana right now, sir?

PENCE: It"s banging right up to 10 percent. It"s worse in some counties in my district.

MATTHEWS: And you"re willing to face it. It"s 10 percent as of the last couple of months. Are you willing to face that unemployment rate and still say no to the people on unemployment comp, even though they paid into it?

PENCE: I am--I am willing to stand up for every American to help Americans at the point of need and also to say that I want to be a part of leadership in Washington, D.C. that"s willing to make the harder choices, to put a priority on some spending over others.

Look, the American people want to help people at the point in the need. They want to see us pursuing policies that will create jobs. But, Chris, I got to tell you, maybe you can hear it out there on the west coast. Back home in Indiana, at a county fair on Friday night, all I heard about was when are you people going to get serious about getting spending under control?

MATTHEWS: I think the unemployment rate is even worse out here.
Thank you very much. And keep coming back to HARDBALL.
Congressman Mike Pence--

PENCE: You bet.

MATTHEWS: -- number three Republican leader in the House.

Up next, in the wake of the September 11th attacks, the federal government built up its national security and intelligence bureaucracy. But did it make us safer? That"s the problem, it were so complex it"s so difficult to manage. One has to wonder whether we"re getting the job done of protecting us and keeping us safe.

We got a huge story coming up here--thanks to Dana Priest, who wrote the big story for "The Washington Post." She"s coming here next. You got to hear this one.

This is HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.

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