NBC "Meet The Press" - Transcript

Interview

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MR. GREGORY: We're back with our exclusive debate. Here with me now, former House majority leader and author of the new book, "Give Us Liberty: A Tea Party Manifesto," Republican Dick Armey, and the Democratic governor from the state of Michigan, Jennifer Granholm.

Welcome to both of you.

GOV. JENNIFER GRANHOLM (D-MI): Thank you, David.

MR. GREGORY: We are talking about the impact of the tea party, the climate for this midterm race, and what the prospects are for Republicans and Democrats, and I do want to start with, when we think about issues that voters will be thinking about, some of the larger questions that arise out of this mosque debate, about whether it should be built in Lower Manhattan. The president did speak out about this, as Senator McConnell indicated. This is what he said at an at iftar dinner this week.

(Videotape, August 13, 2010)

PRES. BARACK OBAMA: As a citizen and as president, I believe that Muslims have the right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. That includes the right to build a place of worship in a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable.

(End videotape)

MR. GREGORY: That was last Friday. The very next day he appeared to hedge his views on all of this. Watch.

(Videotape, August 14, 2010)

PRES. OBAMA: I was not commenting and I will not comment on the wisdom of making a decision to put a mosque there. I was commenting very specifically on the right that people have that dates back to our founding. That's what our country's about. And I think it's very important that, you know, as difficult as some of these issues are, you know, we stay focused on who we are as a people and, and what our values are all about.

(End videotape)

MR. GREGORY: Governor, a lot of people felt that this was a hedge, an attempt to walk back his previous support. Has this been an example of strong leadership by the president to wade into this issue and to make statements like that?

GOV. GRANHOLM: Well, I think that any time somebody stands up for the Constitution, which is exactly what he did, I don't think there's any disagreement that they have the right to be able to worship and to build on private property. I don't think anybody would disagree with that. The question is whether it is a good decision on their part, right? What's the imam saying. Now, the imam apparently is overseas and has been overseas on a State Department mission bridge building for three weeks. And so the question is, what is the nature of this particular imam and the sect? It's a Sufi sect, apparently, and that's supposed to be the most peaceful of all the--that sect is under attack by al-Qaeda. I think the question really is we need to hear from the imam, but it's a real teachable moment for American Islam, for the, for the--I actually, in anticipation of this question, David, I called, because Michigan has the largest Arab-American population outside of the Middle East. And so I called one of our imams yesterday, and I said, "Do you know this imam? What can you tell me about him?" He said, "He is the most bridge building imam in--one of the most in the country." And that we as a nation, and he's an American, of course, ought to be holding that kind of leadership close rather than saying--brushing all Muslims with this brush that affiliates them with al-Qaeda. They're being attacked by al-Qaeda, too. They're just as offended at--or maybe even more so, because of what the, the splashback is on all Muslims. So I think we ought to be hearing from them.

MR. GREGORY: Leader Armey, back in 2001, after the 9/11 attacks, you went to the floor, and you were outspoken, saying that there are Muslims around the world, Arabs who are as horrified as U.S. citizens, that we ought to treat them with equal respect and decent treatment. In that vein, do you think it's a wise decision to have the mosque here as a sign of living our values?

FMR. REP. DICK ARMEY (R-TX): I believe the folks that want to build the mosque there are making an unwise decision. But I think, when, when I look at the 18 percent of the American people that are enthusiastic about this grassroots movement, we see this as while it's an important issue. It's an issue that ought not to be distracting the president from the critical issues of unemployment, fiscal responsibility, a nation headed for bankruptcy. And the larger issues that affect the future of our children make this issue pale. On the question of should the president be sticking up for the Constitution, our folks say, "Well, great, I love him sticking up for the--we should have done that on medical--Medicare," where, in fact, he trashed the Constitution in the view of most of our folks. And in terms of him being here and then there, it reflects again our fear that this president is whimsical and doesn't really quite know where he is on any subject, even the larger subjects that are driving our folks in, in the street trying to make change in America.

MR. GREGORY: Talking about your folks, you're talking about tea partiers around the country and the movement that you've written about. One of the arguments that Democrats make about some of the candidates who are supported by the tea party is that they're, frankly, too extreme for the--even the mainstream of the Republican Party. And I want to go through some of the top races and have you respond to that.

REP. ARMEY: Yeah.

MR. GREGORY: Colorado U.S. Senate race, Ken Buck, Republican nominee. He wants to eliminate the Energy and Education Departments, says separation of church and state is too strictly enforced. To Kentucky, Rand Paul, tea party candidate in the Senate race, critical, of course, of the minimum wage law, civil rights law, supports cutting back on unemployment insurance, calls Medicare socialized medicine. Nevada, Sharron Angle, for the Senate again, talks about no adoption for same sex couples, the U.S. should pull out of the U.N., privatize Medicare and Social Security. And finally, in Utah in the Senate race, you've got Mike Lee. He wants to repeal the progressive income tax, supports changing the 14th Amendment of birthright citizenship. If this is the tea party's impact on national politics, there's certainly a lot of Democrats who say too extreme for the mainstream of the political country.

REP. ARMEY: Well, first, first of all, each one of these candidates won a Republican primary as a Republican candidate with a variety of different stresses on different issues. I am not going to take the Democrat Party's characterization of a Republican Party candidate's position on any issue as the gospel truth. I don't know if you've noticed, but politicians say insincere things; and, frankly, I don't quite listen to the Democrats on the candidates. But the voters paid attention to the candidates and made their choice. Now, the Democrats are--they have a guy down in, in South Carolina who wins the primary and, and is then convicted of a felony. They ought to concern themselves with, "What is the quality of our candidates, and can we meet the challenge of trying to race against these candidates?" who are going to beat their person in the, in the fall.

MR. GREGORY: Governor, is this an example of what, what they've called a mainstream political movement, some of these candidates and their views?

GOV. GRANHOLM: Well, you know, no. I think it's far outside the mainstream. In fact, one of the things--you just held up Paul Ryan's, you know, proposal regarding Medicare and regarding Social Security. I think a lot of which you've jumped onto as well. But there was a recent poll out that said that 85 percent of Americans don't want to see Social Security cut to solve the, the deficit. The reality is, you know, as a governor of the state that has had the toughest economic go-over the past eight years, I'm just really interested in what works to create jobs, what works. And the proposals that are coming from these candidates are not proposals that work. This is the laboratory of the states right here, and I can tell you what has worked. What has worked is the government smartly intervening to save the auto industry; smartly, strategically, surgically intervening to invest with the private sector to create, for example, the electric batteries for the vehicles; smartly intervening with the private sector to be able to do the breakthrough technologies that the private sector doesn't have the funds to be able to do. That's what other countries are doing. And we've got to realize that these economic models that just say, "We've got to cut, cut, cut, cut, cut," you know, who's applauding most is China. They're happy that this movement is happening...

MR. GREGORY: But there's...

GOV. GRANHOLM: ...that's going to continue to cut away.

MR. GREGORY: But there's a broader debate here, and I think the governor gets to it, Leader Armey...

REP. ARMEY: Well...

MR. GREGORY: ...which is the role of government...

REP. ARMEY: Right.

MR. GREGORY: ...is it part of the problem or part of the solution? This is what drives the tea party movement.

REP. ARMEY: Absolutely. And, and, and, and this mischaracterization, once again, of Paul Ryan, who's probably the most creative thinking and most courageous guy in Washington, plan on Social--all Paul Ryan is saying is let Social Security be voluntary, let Medicare be voluntary. Why--if these are such great programs, why do you have difficulty with people being free to choose? And I'll tell you what, Paul Ryan and I will give every Social Security recipient in America that chooses to stay in this system a better guarantee that it will be as they know it today than the Democrat Party will...

MR. GREGORY: All right.

REP. ARMEY: ...because the Democrat Party is going to start making changes that will, in fact, deny individuals their benefits.

MR. GREGORY: Let me ask you this, though. We--there's certainly a separation debate to be had about how to deal with Medicare and Social Security. But I wonder, you heard my questions to Senator McConnell, he certainly doesn't appear to be on board with what Paul Ryan is talking about. There's 13 co-sponsors to strict spending. When you talk about a hostile takeover of the Republican Party, are the leaders of the Republican Party today part of the problem?

REP. ARMEY: First of all, the fact that they--he only has 13 co-sponsors is a big reason why our folks are agitated against the Republicans as well as the Democrats. The difference between being on--a co-sponsor with Ryan and not is a thing called courage. And we have watched American public policy dominated by Democrats that don't care and Republicans that don't, don't dare for a long time. So we're saying to the Republican Party, you know, "Get some courage to stand up for the things that are right for this country. Don't stand there and, and, and hide from the issue because you're afraid of the politics. The issue of public policy that governs the future of my children is more important than your politics, and if you can't see that, we'll replace you."

MR. GREGORY: Go ahead, Governor.

GOV. GRANHOLM: If you care, if you care about democracy and what the everday citizen believes, and you want to empower them, and they don't want the Social Security system to be dismantled and they don't want the Medicare system to be dismantled, because you're picking and choosing, and this is a compact between generations to be able to make sure that all of our seniors have the funds when they retire that they're not going to be homeless, so they're not going to have to go to a shelter.

REP. ARMEY: Well...

GOV. GRANHOLM: I'm not kidding you. You--the idea that, that 85...

REP. ARMEY: No, no, you, you just crack me up. You get it wrong again.

GOV. GRANHOLM: Well, you're cracking me up, too, man.

REP. ARMEY: Now, there's nobody that's talking about dismantling these systems.

GOV. GRANHOLM: Eighty-five percent of people--well, but if you do that, every actuarial who's looked at it says that you effectively dismantle the system.

REP. ARMEY: OK, let me...

GOV. GRANHOLM: And if 85 percent of Americans wanted it...

MR. GREGORY: All right.

REP. ARMEY: Let, let me ask you a simple question. If you happen to be a Christian Scientist and have never seen a doctor in your life and never intend to go to a doctor in your life and never bought insurance in your life, is it right to, to be told at the age of 65 if you don't buy--sign up for Medicare, we'll take away your Social Security? That's not in the law. It's not even a regulation.

GOV. GRANHOLM: Well...

MR. GREGORY: I want...

REP. ARMEY: It's some whimsical thing that is enforced by this government in the aftermath of policy.

MR. GREGORY: I want to get one other question in.

REP. ARMEY: That is not, that is--I mean, that--you can certainly afford to give that little provision up, can't you?

GOV. GRANHOLM: No. No.

REP. ARMEY: And let the, let the Christian Scientists be free to choose...

GOV. GRANHOLM: Let's go at it. But I know we want...(unintelligible).

MR. GREGORY: All right. But this, this debate to continue. We've got about a minute left. I want to, I want to address the tax debate. And what you hear from Republican leaders is an unwillingness to pay the bill as you move forward to extend the Bush tax cuts.

REP. ARMEY: Not at all.

MR. GREGORY: Is that wrong? You heard Alan Greenspan say that it's borrowed money...

REP. ARMEY: No. Right.

MR. GREGORY: ...and that they do not pay for themselves.

REP. ARMEY: Where has Alan Greenspan been? John--I, I was a young undergraduate watching all my faculty celebrate the genius of John F. Kennedy as he taught us you cut taxes, revenues increase. Reagan cut taxes, revenue doubled. What--the first, most important, critical thing for the American economy is to cut the size of the federal government. This is a big, fat, sloppy, inefficient, obstructionist, Porky Pig that's standing in the way of economic progress for the American people. It is counterproductive. It's an extra weight. It is--and it needs to be cut or this economy can't carry the weight. This is no thinking...

MR. GREGORY: This is the argument.

GOV. GRANHOLM: Just quickly--this is the argument, and it's a 20th century argument, it's not a 21st century argument. When we're competing in a global economy, the government has to partner with the private sector to create jobs. If you just slash spending, you slash the investments in the things that are going to move our economy forward, we miss out. Just very quickly, last year, the vice president came to Michigan, said we were going to get all these battery grants; we created--we have 16 companies now in Michigan just in the past year because we partnered with the private sector creating 62,000 jobs. Strategic investment with the private sector is what works in the 20th century.

MR. GREGORY: But should the Democrats be raising taxes on the wealthiest Americans during a recession?

GOV. GRANHOLM: It's--the question is, should the tax cuts expire for the wealthiest 2 percent so that we can make the investments that will grow jobs? Yes. That's the most effective way of creating job growth. The CBO has said that cutting taxes for the wealthiest 2 percent is the most ineffective way of creating job growth.

REP. ARMEY: I'll give you, I'll give you anywhere from--a minimum of $2 trillion to a possible $8 trillion worth of real stimulus of the economy from the private sector if we can just relieve the private sector that's sitting on its cash from the fear that this administration's going to screw up the future of this economy. Let them understand this administration's going to stand down from any new cockamamy ideas and not raise taxes and take away the return on an investment, and they'll put that cash to work in America.

MR. GREGORY: I'm going to make that the last word.

GOV. GRANHOLM: Ah!

MR. GREGORY: I suspect this debate will continue as we go into the fall campaign.

GOV. GRANHOLM: Thanks.

MR. GREGORY: Governor, Leader Armey, thank you both very much. And you can keep the mug, by the way.

Coming up next, the growing controversy over plans to build an Islamic cultural center and mosque near Ground Zero. American views about Islam, and uncertainty over President Obama's own religious beliefs. Our roundtable sorts it out: Jeffrey Goldberg of The Atlantic magazine, Paul Gigot of The Wall Street Journal, Katty Kay of the BBC, and former Congressman Rick Lazio, a Republican candidate for governor in New York, after this brief station break.

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