CBS "Face the Nation" - Transcript: Stop and Frisk Policies



BOB SCHIEFFER: And welcome back to FACE THE NATION. Joining us now to talk more about that stop, question, and frisk policy and a whole lot more include-- including the National Security Agency and what's going on there, two key members of the House Judiciary Committee, the Chairman Bob Goodlatte and Democrat Bobby Scott. Both of whom happen to be from-- from Virginia. So we're glad to have both of you here today. Congressman Scott, let me just ask you, I want to get your reaction to what you just heard Ray Kelly say. He strongly defends the stop and frisk policy.

REPRESENTATIVE BOBBY SCOTT (Judiciary Committee/D-Virginia): Well, I was surprised that anybody would defend it. As applied it's very discriminatory and it only applies-- overwhelmingly, applies to minority areas. Most of the people that are told to get up against the wall and get stopped and frisked are innocent. There's no probable cause, not even any articulable suspicion about doing any good. If you tried that in some other communities, they'd be outraged and they're just rightfully outraged in the minority community about this.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Cong-- Chairman.

REPRESENTATIVE BOB GOODLATTE (Judiciary Committee Chairman): Well, I think that it's very important to look at whether it does, indeed, violate the civil liberties. The lower court judge found that to be the case. It now goes on to a higher court. No question it's been effective in reducing crime in New York City, but you've got to protect civil liberties at the same time. So it's certainly appropriate to review it.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Let's talk about the National Security Agency. Now, another big disclosure in the Washington Post where the Agency admits that they have intruded on some people's privacy but they say it's inadvertent. We have the chairs of both the House and the Senate Intelligence Committee saying basically that they believe there is strong oversight. They are-- they're not sure that the agency to kind of short-- put it in short sentences--has really done anything wrong on purpose. But they admit that some mistakes have been made. Do you feel that privacy has been invaded, Mister Chairman?

REPRESENTATIVE BOB GOODLATTE: Well, I think that we need to have much stronger oversight to determine whether or not that indeed is the case. When this was made known based on the leaks of Edward Snowden, the Judiciary Committee conducted a briefing--a classified briefing--for all of the members of the House. It was very clear then that many of them did not know about these programs or how they worked, including the former chairman of the committee Jim Sensenbrenner who was the chairman when these laws were written and myself. Obviously, some members were aware of this, but most were not. So it's important, I think, that we delve into this much more deeply. Since then we've held a public hearing on this. We brought that same panel that was involved with the classified briefing plus a panel that included civil libertarian experts. And now when we return in September we intend to hold another hearing, a classified hearing so we can dig deeply into the questions about how much this costs, what evidence-- information is being gathered and how these programs need to be changed to comply with the law.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Congressman, some members have actually said they thought that the-- the committees, the-- that have oversight on this have not been forthcoming to-- to members. That they have withheld some things like audits and things. The committee chairs deny that. But do you think that you've been getting the right kind of information on this?

REPRESENTATIVE BOBBY SCOTT: Well, part of the problem is that what they say they're entitled to. And you can't believe all of the leaks. I mean just because something has been leaked doesn't mean it's actually true. But getting all of the phone calls from all Americans in the United States under the guise of information relevant to an ongoing investigation involving foreign intelligence gets all phone calls. Well, that's to-- to me a real stretch. But the key--

BOB SCHIEFFER: But it's not the phone calls, it's-- it's the phone numbers.

REPRESENTATIVE BOBBY SCOTT: Well, yeah. And then they say it was just the numbers but it doesn't take much of an operation to put names on the numbers that-- you can go on the internet and start connecting names and numbers. But the question is, after you've gotten it, what do you do with it? There was a Supreme Court case a few weeks ago on DNA, that said that if you get-- if you're charged with a sex crime they got your DNA and they find out it's not you, they can keep the DNA and what's the first thing they are going to do, they're going to run it through the database to see if you've committed a crime. Now, they went up to you and said "Give me some DNA. We want to see if you've committed a crime." That would be legally laughable. But once they've got it, they can do with it what they want. Now they said they get all these phone records but they only query the information judiciously. Well, there is no-- I-- I can't find anything in the code that limits what they can do with that information, particularly in criminal investigations. And-- and so they say, well, they're not doing it. Well, I want to rephrase Ronald Reagan and say we should trust but codify. Put it in a code what they can do because they have virtually unlimited. And-- and then they said they-- they have promised us they're not using it for-- for criminal investigations. There's a leak, I don't know if it's true or not, that some of this information that they've gotten has been tipped off from the NSA. It has been sent over to the FBI. They, according to the leak, will invest-- will-- will use that leak to bust somebody. When they get the infor-- they tell the FBI to kind of fabricate some probable cause so it looks like it didn't from the NSA. They don't tell in response to queries from defense lawyers, they don't turn over the fact that it was an NSA situation, which-- which raises all kinds of questions. So we-- we-- we don't-- we don't know. But the question-- the real question is what can you do with the information after you've gotten it? And it seems that we've been told one thing, what they do, and that kind of fuzzyfies what the process is that they use and what the law restricts--

BOB SCHIEFFER: So what-- and what needs to be done here?


BOB SCHIEFFER: How serious a danger is this and what needs to be done?

REPRESENTATIVE BOBBY SCOTT: Well-- well, Bob, if you limit this discussion and you limit the use of what you get to terrorism you'd be having a different discussion than what you've got now.

REPRESENTATIVE BOB GOODLATTE: I think we need to have a very careful examination of this. I think that the trust of the American people in their government is what's at stake here. I met with the President recently, told him just that. There has been, in my opinion, not a good leadership here in terms of making the American people feel good about an intelligence organization which is necessary for the national security of the country at the same time protecting American civil liberties as the law is intended to do. So we need to have the classified briefing. We then are going to be seeing legislation introduced in our committee. I have absolutely no doubt about that. And we will then undertake that. Some of the things that are suggested are to make it clear that the law, Section 215, does not allow the government to gather large sums of data like they do. Also, we need to have more transparency in the FISA court system. Decisions are being made there not just on individual cases but on broader-based policy matters that are not being reviewed outside of the court and not readily available to the public or even most members of Congress. I had members of Congress complain to me about their inability to see some of those court decisions and I think that public's confidence can only be restored by making the system as transparent as possible given that it is an intelligence gathering operation. We're going to set out to do that in the Judiciary Committee.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Let me shift to immigration. Do either of you think there's going to be an immigration reform bill of substance during this session? I know you have a new approach you're talking about but what do you think chances are of getting something passed this time around?

REPRESENTATIVE BOB GOODLATTE: I think that there are good possibilities that we can reform what is a broken immigration system. We are a nation of immigrants. There's not a person watching your program who's a U.S. citizen who can't go back a few generations and find somebody who came to this country to better their lives for themselves and their family. We're also a nation of laws and we're not seeing the enforcement of our current immigration law. So enforcement has to take place first. And we have passed--

BOB SCHIEFFER: But you have to find out and figure out something to do with these eleven million people that are already here. Well, what are you going to do with them?

REPRESENTATIVE BOB GOODLATTE: Well, first, I think you have to assure that there's not going to be another wave of illegal immigration. That was the big criticism of the 1986 law. They gave an easy pathway to citizenship to nearly three million people. And then they said we are going to secure the border. We're going to have employer sanctions and so on and all of that has been very lightly enforced and in some instances not at all enforced by not just this President but by a series of Presidents. So you have got to again restore the trust in the American people by saying that the law is going to be enforced. And we need new laws on employment verification, on entry-exit visa system, on allowing state and local law enforcement to have a clear statutorily defined role, so that no one person, no one President can decide that I'm going to enforce the law or not going to enforce the law. It needs to have more trust. Then you are going to need legal immigration reforms and then, finally, we need to find the appropriate legal status for people who are not here.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Congressman, I'll give you the last word. Do you think there's a chance any of this can happen?

REPRESENTATIVE BOBBY SCOTT: I think Bob has outlined the-- the-- the agreement. It has to be comprehensive. You have to secure the borders, deal with the people that are here, and then deal with the people coming in on a rational basis. The bill that covered all those basis passed the Senate with almost seventy votes. We can do the same thing but I don't think you can do it piecemeal because people have different interests. Everybody's-- an overwhelming portion are willing to go with a comprehensive package but doing it piecemeal would be problematic.

REPRESENTATIVE BOB GOODLATTE: Step by step approach is the way to do it with enforcement coming first. And it's important to note that that Senate bill has the same flaws as the 1986 law. It gives a legal status and then it says we're going to do all of these enforcement measures after we give the legal status. And it has what I call a special pathway to citizenship, which people who have for generations lawfully immigrated to the United States do not get but if you came into the country illegally or overstayed your visa and are here illegally today you get something that those people don't have. That's wrong.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, I hope the two of you can figure it out.

REPRESENTATIVE BOB GOODLATTE: We're going to work together.

BOB SCHIEFFER: We'll see what happens. I'm glad to hear that.