ABC This Week With George Stephanopoulos - Transcript

ABC News Transcripts

SHOW: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

HEADLINE: HEADLINER JOSEPH BIDEN

BODY:
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS

(Off Camera) In Iraq, another US soldier was killed and a second wounded last night in central Baghdad when their vehicle hit an explosive device. He was the 33rd American soldier killed in Iraq this week, which leads us to a conversation we had a short time ago with our headliner, Senator Joseph Biden, the ranking Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) Senator Biden, good morning.

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN, DEMOCRAT, DELAWARE

Good morning, how are you, George?

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) Good, thank you. What a week, 33 US soldiers dead, the Turks say they're not going to send troops into Iraq. The Red Cross is pulling out of Basra and Baghdad. Even the Spanish embassy closed down most of its mission, yet, looking at all this, Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage is in Bagh(PH) yesterday, and says the US has the momentum. Do you buy that?

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

No, I don't, George. The US is a country right now basically in search of a strategy, and I think it's time to make a fundamental shift in the way in which we're going about trying to win the peace here, but, no, I do not think we have the momentum.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) So what would that fundamental shift entail?

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

I think it entails the president literally not figuratively calling a summit with our European friends and saying, look, we got to make three changes, one, we have to have this a NATO-led operation, two, we have to have a high commissioner in here on the Bosnian model, it doesn't have to be an American reporting to the knack,(PH) reporting to NATO and reporting to the Security Council, and thirdly, this Governing Council, we have to make changes in the Governing Council and I would use as an excuse, because in the paper today, George, the administration is talking about maybe having to do this. I'd use that as the entr'e with the French to say we can work out an arrangement here.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) But what, what, excuse me, but what makes you think that any other country would come in now? The UN has basically pulled out, the Red Cross has basically pulled out, the situation has gotten more dangerous, not less. What would compel another nation to send troops at this point?

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

What would compel them is their naked self-interest. Because what's dawning on the capitals in Berlin and in Paris, is that if, in fact, the peace is lost in Iraq, they're in real trouble. They're in more trouble than we are in trouble in the sense that this is their front yard. They're worried about everything from oil to immigration more than we are, George. And I think it's time for some grown-ups to sit down and stop this sort of personal pique that exists between Chirac who has not been very helpful and Schroeder and the president and I think we should use this as an opportunity to sort of say, okay, let's move to plan B here because, look, the bottom line is we need more forces in there and they're either going to be more American forces or they're going to be more international forces and we need more help in there and they're gonna have to give the international community a bigger piece of the decision making process.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) Well, excuse me. The administration says the answer is more Iraqi forces. And just in the last month you've gone from 58,000 Iraqi security forces to the latest number Secretary Rumsfeld said on Thursday were 118,000 and their goal is to get 200,000 in there by next September. Are you concerned by the rate of the increase, the rapid increase of the Iraqi forces?

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

The goal is absolutely correct, but the rate of the training is I think well beyond the capacity of them to be able to do anything very effective. When I was in, matter of fact, I saw you when I was in Jordan, when we were in Amman, and then I went over to Baghdad. They told us, our folks told us then it would take us three years to train up 40,000 Iraqi military. We're talking about 220 some thousand in a matter of months. I think we may very well be so premature that we make it virtually impossible for the Iraqis to do what needs to be done. The Iraqis have to provide their own security but I think they need a little more time to do that and I think that requires more international support and I think John McCain and I have been saying this, not very popular, saying separately that we need more forces in there temporarily, not fewer forces.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) But as you know, General Abizaid and General Sanchez and all the other generals on the ground say the problem is not quantity but quality. Do you question their judgment?

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

Well, I think they're, I think they, I think if you got them alone in a room, it clearly is quality. By quality I mean the type of force, the type of force. We have quality young men and women over there right now, but what we need are more people who are counterinsurgency trained, more people who are, who are special forces types. We need more information officers. We need more intelligence officers, et cetera. That's what we mean by quality. But also ...

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) I want to stop you for a second there.

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

Sure.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) You said if you got them alone in a room. That would suggest that you think they're trimming their advice because of some sort of political pressure.

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

Well, look, there's the commander in chief. The commander in chief, their boss, says, and you remember how this was. Their boss says, this is the deal. We don't need any more forces. Now, what is a general going to say? I don't doubt that the essence of what they say but I cannot believe if you said to, let me put it this way, George, if, in fact, we don't need any more forces, why did we try so hard to get another 10,000 Turks in there? Why do we shoot so hard about three months, to get 18,000 Indians and Bangladeshis in there? Why have we made this incredible effort to increase the total force structure? That wasn't at a time when we said if we get those, we're drawing down Americans right away. And so, and we talk about 600,000 tons of ammunition left unguarded in Iraq. We're seeing the by- product of that now, with these, these shoulder-held missiles and so on. So I think there's too many contradictory statements here. But the bottom line is, I think Rumsfeld says he wants to get out of there as quick as he can and I think they want to be able to show going into next year that they're drawing down forces and use the line that, you know, we have the momentum. I don't think that reflects reality.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) I want to play you something you said about Secretary Rumsfeld earlier this week on the IMUS program and get you to respond. Here it is.

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

If you were president of the United States and you had gotten advice as what was gonna happen after Saddam fell from Cheney and Rumsfeld and the rest and all of it turned out to be wrong and you were running your business now, okay, the guys around you, all the advice they gave you for six months in a row was dead wrong, you'd probably fire them, wouldn't you?

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) Now, President Bush can't fire Vice President Cheney. But do you think he should fire Secretary Rumsfeld?

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

Well, as you know, I've never suggested what a president should and shouldn't do. If I were president of the United States, and I got that advice, I would ask my secretary to leave because he got other advice, which was the exact opposite, that turned out to be right. The advice he was getting from Powell, the advice he was getting from the uniformed military, the advice he was getting even from the internal reports of the National Security Council turned out to be right. They said there would be no infrastructure to be able to be stood up in Iraq immediately afterward. There would be no police force capable of doing that. There would be not enough money in from the oil revenues, so you had one half of your administration giving you the correct advice, one half of them giving the wrong advice. You took all the wrong advice. I think I would say, no, those folks should go or at least not be listened to.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) So if you were president, Rumsfeld would be gone. Let me ask you one final ...

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

Again, I'm not suggesting the president do that. That's the president's decision. His comfort level, his comfort level. If he thinks he should stay, he should stay, but if I were me, I would say, why don't we play golf?

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) Let me ask you one final question. There were reports this week about this last-minute diplomatic effort where Richard Perle, who is coming on the program next, was called over to London to meet with a Lebanese businessman who had an offer from the Iraqis to avert a war. Are you convinced after reading these reports, and there were other reports, as well, that diplomacy was exhausted before this war?

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

I am not convinced that these offers were real, but I am convinced diplomacy was not exhausted. One of the best comments John Kerry has used in this entire campaign, and he means it from his heart, he said, in order, before you send American forces to fight, you should be able to look their parents in the eye and say I did everything I possibly could to avoid this war. It appears that that was not done, but I'm anxious to hear Richard Perle, who is a really bright guy and informed guy, you're having him next, I have not spoken to him personally but it seems as though it was not exhausted.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

(Off Camera) Senator Biden, thank you very much.

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN

Thank you very much, George.