MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" -Transcript

Interview

MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" -Transcript

MR. MATTHEWS: Senator Joe Biden is the Democratic -- he's actually the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, Foreign Relations Committee of the U.S. Senate. He chaired this morning's hearings with General Petraeus.

I am stunned, Senator -- not usually stunned here; I know you're not stunned often -- but there's 169,000 people over there fighting and risking their lives every day, men and women in Iraq, wondering if they're serving their country in some cases.

Here we have the general commanding them saying he doesn't know whether they're making America safer over there.

SEN. BIDEN: It's a sad day, Chris. Look, this is a -- I think what the whole day proved, both in my committee and now in the Armed Services Committee, is that the two men in charge of the policy, I don't think they embrace the policy. I think they know that there's no possibility to be able to secure Iraq, bring our troops home and leave something stable behind based on the strategy of this administration. And yet that's what they're supposed to implement. I think that's what you saw today. That's me making a judgment about two men I know pretty well. They did not say that to me, but that's what their answers said to me.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, you know them well. I only know them from appearances. Ryan Crocker looks like he does not believe in the policy because he didn't really explain it. He never really made the case that there's going to be a political unification of that country, the kind of central government that you oppose and believe won't work. He doesn't sound like he believes it either.

SEN. BIDEN: I don't think he does. Look, I don't think -- I think there's virtually -- there's very few people who at this point don't agree with what Les Gelb and I have been pushing, not because we pushed it; either as a default position or as their starting position, which is the only way.

The only way American forces can leave Iraq without leaving chaos behind and having a civil war metastasizing in the region is to separate these parties, give them breathing room within their own federal areas, and have a loosely knit central government that distributes revenues. I think that's the only, only way out. I've thought that for some time. And I believe -- and it sounds self- serving, but I really believe, Chris, the vast majority of the foreign policy military specialists are reaching that conclusion.

MR. MATTHEWS: But we have a policy --

SEN. BIDEN: That's right.

MR. MATTHEWS: -- of restoring stability to the streets of Baghdad so that that central government can come together. And you're saying all the blood and treasure to try to do that has a worthless end, because in the end there won't be a coming together and this mission will fail.

SEN. BIDEN: There will not be a coming together. Look, by the definition -- look, this president has had a policy. What was his policy? He was going to establish a strong central democratic government in Baghdad. How was he going to do that? He was going to, quote, "stand up an Iraqi army so we could stand down."

MR. MATTHEWS: Right.

SEN. BIDEN: The second part of the policy was we're going to have this surge. Why? To give breathing space to the warring sectarian factions to get together and reach an accommodation. By their own measure, they have failed. The military will not be ready for at least another two years. I don't believe it'll be ready for four to five years. I'm not sure --

MR. MATTHEWS: How long are we going to be in Iraq, according to Petraeus' estimates, based upon your conversation with him? He won't say it in the hearing. Will he tell you? How many years? How many decades are we going to be over there?

SEN. BIDEN: Well, if, in fact, we re-elect -- I'm not being a wise guy, now -- if we elect a Republican president after this, we're going to be there for another seven, eight, 10 years.

MR. MATTHEWS: And when will we achieve this goal of an independent --

SEN. BIDEN: We will not.

MR. MATTHEWS: -- defensible, democratic, stable government in Iraq?

SEN. BIDEN: We will not. What we will have done, we'll try to occupy, as long as we can, to keep the wheels from totally coming off. That's all this is about, Chris.

MR. MATTHEWS: So we're the cork in the bottle.

SEN. BIDEN: We are the cork in the bottle. That's it. And that is not something I want my -- our sons and daughters to be. We will not tolerate that. The American people will not tolerate us being the cork in the bottle. They'll take sacrifices for a victory that, in fact, enhances the security of the United States of America. But they're not going to do this to keep the status quo ante. And they shouldn't. They shouldn't be asked to do it.

MR. MATTHEWS: What's going to happen in the U.S. Senate, sir? You're one of the senior members. What's going to happen between now and the end of this year to deal with this war question?

SEN. BIDEN: Look, we're going to -- look, the bottom line is, Chris, you know, we need 67 votes in the United States Senate to override the president, a recalcitrant president's veto. He's going to veto everything.

My hope was -- my hope was that what would happen with this report is enough Republicans would see through it; we'd be able, over the month of October and early November, to pick up enough votes to set deadlines of beginning to withdraw our troops and reject this notion that we're going to go back to pre-surge levels this time next year. For what? For what?

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, let's count the names. You'll probably pick up Chuck Hagel.

SEN. BIDEN: I hope -- yes.

MR. MATTHEWS: He's leaving the Senate because he's apparently being shunned by the other Republicans. You've got Gordon Smith, I believe, who's been outspoken in this regard. Will you get Susan Collins? Will you get Olympia Snowe? Will you get John Sununu? Will you get Norm Coleman? Will you get these people?

SEN. BIDEN: The answer is, based on what I heard -- I shouldn't guess, but in my committee Coleman and Sununu, they weren't as critical of the report as I hoped they would be. So I'm not optimistic about how many of them are going to switch at this point.

But look, Chris, you know, you're not doing this, but what we all do is we handicap whether the president has a good day, a bad day, the administration's policy had a good day or a bad day. None of that matters. What's going to matter is, when they pick up The Washington Post, the Philadelphia Inquirer, the San Francisco Examiner a month from now and they're going to see nothing, nothing materially has changed for the better.

And so all this malarkey about whether or not the president has had a good day and whether or not he's been able to move the pea in the shell a little bit longer is going to be irrelevant, because this comes down to how many people are going to be dead between now and then; how many people are wounded between now and then.

MR. MATTHEWS: Let me ask you again about the performance -- let us watch this again together, and I want your reaction; I'll get out of your way. I found this profound. This is the senior Republican on Armed Services, one of the most respected colleagues you have -- and I know you agree -- John Warner.

SEN. BIDEN: Yes.

MR. MATTHEWS: Here he is asking the question. I think he took the bark off this guy. And I respect him as a soldier, but not as a policy maker. Petraeus shouldn't be a policymaker. We only have one of them, the commander in chief. Here's the question and the answer again.

(Begin videotaped segment.)

SEN. JOHN WARNER (R-VA): Are you able to say at this time, if we continue what you have laid before the Congress here as a strategy, do you feel that that is making America safer?

GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS (commander, Multinational Force Iraq): Sir, I believe that this is indeed the best course of action to achieve our objectives in Iraq.

SEN. WARNER: Does that make America safer?

GEN. PETRAEUS: Sir, I don't know, actually. I have not sat down and sorted it out in my own mind. What I have focused on and been riveted on is how to accomplish the mission of the Multinational Force Iraq.

(End videotaped segment.)

MR. MATTHEWS: You know, Senator, you have the port, Dover, Delaware, where the bodies come back. I hate talking about this. I know you do too. But if the commander over there can't justify the deaths of these soldiers because it serves a national purpose and makes us safer, then what the hell are we doing there?

SEN. BIDEN: We shouldn't be there, Chris. We should not be there now. We've got to get out of there. Look, Chris, on my way back -- I was supposed to fly out this last Friday on a C-130. And on that flight, they placed what they call -- and this is heart-wrenching -- they refer to every one of those bodies as a fallen angel. They put six fallen angels on that aircraft.

And, you know, Chris, what do you say? Why did they fall? What do you say? What do you say to their parents? What do you say to those troops? And you know what? They're incredible, Chris. I know -- you know, I'm not one of these guys that gets on every time and talks about "I love the military" and the rest. But let me tell you something, Chris. I've been over there eight times. These kids are brave. They get in these vehicles every damn day and they ride out on those roads, some of them having been hit already, knowing that their chance to get blown away is overwhelming, and they do it every day.

And what are we doing now? We are not telling the American people the truth about the failure in Iraq and we are not having the courage, the courage, to have a fundamental change in policy -- withdraw, change the dynamic, eliminate the footprint, move outside the cities, get out of this civil war, insist on a federal system, bring in the international community.

This -- I'm getting myself angry here.

MR. MATTHEWS: I understand, Senator. You're very emotional about this, because you've talked to me and I've watched you on television, not just with you personally but watched you on television talking about the need to give these men the equipment to protect them, the vehicles to protect them from IEDs.

And I keep thinking about General Eisenhower. I didn't serve in the military. I was in the Peace Corps. But let me tell you something. General Eisenhower, when he met with the troops on D-Day right before they took off and risked their lives, and lost them in many cases, he said, "Good luck, soldier."

Imagine if he'd said to them, "Good luck, soldier. I don't know what the hell you're fighting for. I don't know if this is going to make our country any safer or not." It's unimaginable. It's unimaginable that Petraeus came before the U.S. Senate and spoke. Imagine what this is going to sound like on Armed Services Radio tonight and television when they watch their commander say they don't know whether they're making America safer or not.

SEN. BIDEN: Chris, I think --

MR. MATTHEWS: And he's asking them to go into battle every day. It's maddeningly stupid. And this president seems to be hiding behind a guy he gave the orders to and then is expecting him to defend the policy, and he admits it's beyond his pay level to defend the policy.

SEN. BIDEN: Let me tell you something, Chris. He also knows that there's other generals and admirals, some his superiors, who do not think it's making America safer.

MR. MATTHEWS: I think that is his honest answer, Senator. I think you were on to it --

SEN. BIDEN: So do I.

MR. MATTHEWS: -- when you said you know. When they say they don't know, I'm afraid they do.

Senator Joe Biden, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, which held these very important hearings today.

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