ABC "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" - Transcript

Interview

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: And now we're joined back here in the studio by Senator Joseph Biden, Democrat of Delaware, ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Welcome back.

SEN. BIDEN: Good to be with you.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: You heard Ambassador Khalilzad there. What do you think it's going to take for the elections to be successful?

SEN. BIDEN: Well, I think it's going to take turnout, number one. I think he's right. I think there will be an overwhelming turnout. I'm going to be there for two days during those elections. And Zal, the ambassador, has arranged for me through the Iraqi Election Commission, along with two of my colleagues, to be official observers of this. So I suspect we'll be traveling the country.

My expectation is there will be a large turnout. But that's only the first step, George. The real deal here is the constitution. Four to six months later, there's going to be a vote on a constitution. That is either going to be a document of division, or a document of unity. If it ends up being viewed as a document of division, where the Sunnis think they're out of the deal, then I think we're in real trouble. If it turns out to be something where the major groups conclude they are better suited to fight within that framework, then I think we're --

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: But are the Sunnis going to have enough power coming out of these elections? I mean, no one can know for sure, but enough power to guarantee that they actually have a say in amending their constitution.

SEN. BIDEN: You hit the $64 question. The answer, in my view, is "no." That's why we should be doing what not only I've called for, but Secretary Kissinger and Secretary Schultz. There should be essentially a contact group. We should be working now, like we did in Bosnia, like we did in Bosnia, bringing in the regional parties, as well as the major powers, to put pressure on the constituent groups, the Shiia and the Kurds to give up some, and the Sunnis to buy in. They will not be able to do it, in my view, alone.

And Zal did something -- the ambassador did something incredible. I called for postponing the vote on the constitution because I thought it would be the thing that would split the nation. What he did was he got two amendments to that constitution which essentially said all bets are off, we're going to rewrite it after the election, which is what I was trying -- and others, were trying to do. So now we have six months, George. Six months in which to get this right. Without a consensus document, we are in serious trouble. But I think it can be done if we bring in other power.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: But as you say, the elections then are only the first step. Let's turn to the politics here at home. Howard Dean started off the week for the Democrats saying he doesn't believe we can win in Iraq. He took it back later. You saw President Bush praising Senator Lieberman, saying, you know, this senator has the right way to go in Iraq. Why has it been so hard for the Democrats to come up with a unified position?

SEN. BIDEN: Well, look, first of all, we've been unified on one important point, that this president went with too few resources and has made too few good decisions since we've been in, since he's gotten in. The real division, George, in my view, and I happened to be talking to George Will in the Green Room, and he's a baseball guy and this metaphor came, the difference between those of us who think this is the bottom of the eighth inning and those who think it's the bottom of the ninth inning. A lot of Democrats, because they have no faith in the president's ability to adapt and change, have concluded that - game over, it's the bottom of the ninth.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Howard Dean, Jack Murtha.

SEN. BIDEN: It appears that. For different reasons, but yes. It appears to be the case. I'm one of those guys who thinks it's the bottom of the eighth. I think we still have a 50-50 chance of winning this game. But it requires some change. And significant change in policy. I think Zal, our ambassador, knows what those changes should be and it's like pulling teeth, as I observed, looking at the inside of this fight. The real division here is still within the administration. The division, look how long it took Zal to get permission to be able to speak to the Iranians. You remember Bosnia, you remember -

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, except now, he's had it now for several weeks now and they --

SEN. BIDEN: For several weeks, but this was a fight. This was a knock-down, drag-out fight for months.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: But how big a problem is this becoming for the Democrats. I want to show you an ad that the RNC put out just at the end of the week.

DNC CHAIRMAN HOWARD DEAN'S VOICE FROM TV AD: The idea that we're going to win this war is an idea that, unfortunately, is just plain wrong.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: That's an ad they're running on the web right now. You've been very critical of Howard Dean in the past.

SEN. BIDEN: [unintelligible]

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, actually, you did it on this program. You said, "he doesn't speak for me."

SEN. BIDEN: That's true. I don't think that's being critical, but --

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Do you think it's come to the point now where he's doing more harm than good for the Democratic Party?

SEN. BIDEN: Well, look, Howard Dean is doing a good job. Howard Dean -- do you remember, it may have been in this program, or maybe not in this program, you may have been the one interviewing the president, I don't recall, when he said "we can't win the war on terror." Remember that?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: That was Matt Lauer.

SEN. BIDEN: Okay. The president of the United States said we can't win the war on terror. Sometimes elected officials and elected party leaders say things that, if you look at what then the chairman went on to say, Howard Dean, he went on to say -- he talked about redeploying forces. Everybody knows we're going to redeploy forces. Everybody knows the president has planned this to significantly draw down because he has no choice.

He cannot maintain roughly 160,000 forces without breaking the military and breaking the volunteer army.

So everybody knows this is going to take place. The question gets down to the detail. I don't think -- I think many of us are put at a disadvantage of being faced with just Hobson's choices by this administration's very bad decisions. It's kind of like FEMA. FEMA went with - underestimated the problem, went in with too few resources. It's exactly what we did in Iraq. And now we're faced with the problem of saying, and this is a division, do you stay there believing there's no plan and seeing more Americans get killed with no plan for success, or do you leave and worry about the serious consequences --

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: And from your perspective, you say give them six more months so that they can work out a new constitution.

SEN. BIDEN: You've got to. I think we have to. The consequences of us not succeeding are -- this is the one place I agree with the president -- are catastrophic.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Let me turn to another area where calendars make a difference.

SEN. BIDEN: Okay.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Just yesterday, the Democratic National Committee met and it looks like they're coming up with a new plan, a new proposal for the Iowa and New Hampshire caucuses and primaries. Iowa would still be the first caucus, but the plan is to put two more caucuses, one or two caucuses either in the Southwest or the South, in between Iowa and New Hampshire. Of course, people in New Hampshire are up in arms about that. What do you think?

SEN. BIDEN: I think they should put it after New Hampshire. But look, this is above my pay grade and look --

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: But you're sticking by New Hampshire, there. [Laughs]

SEN. BIDEN: I see the smile on your face. You know anybody considering seeking the nomination of the Democratic Party is not very well served by saying you should do anything between Iowa and New Hampshire.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: And you're not going to insult New Hampshire today.

SEN. BIDEN: And I'm not about to do that. [Laughs]

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Okay. Well then one more question on politics before I let you go. One of your potential opponents, if you do, indeed, decide to run, could be Senator Clinton. We learned this week that she has come out for a statute, co-sponsored a statute that would criminalize flag-burning. Are you for that?

SEN. BIDEN: I'm not sure what the statute is.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: It's Senator [unintelligible] statute.

SEN. BIDEN: Yeah. I think the way to deal with treatment of the flag is not through constitutional amendments but through legislation action. The criminalization -- it depends on the definition of what constitutes the crime. If it's desecration of the flag that's criminalized, then even that makes no sense because what constitutes desecration? If there's a specific statement -- I'm the guy, you may remember, who wrote the constitutional amendment, excuse me, the law that passed and ultimately was declared unconstitutional by the United States Supreme Court. And it said you cannot -- simply, you cannot burn the flag, you cannot walk on the flag, and you cannot, I guess that was basically it. I think that --

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: So you're open to a statute?

SEN. BIDEN: I'm open to a statute. I just don't know what the details of it are.

SEN. BIDEN: Good to be with you.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: You heard Ambassador Khalilzad there. What do you think it's going to take for the elections to be successful?
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Okay, Senator Biden. Thank you very much.

SEN. BIDEN: Thanks an awful lot.

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