This Week with George Stephanopoulos - Transript
SHOW: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS (10:30 AM ET) - ABC
October 24, 2004 Sunday
HEADLINE: HEADLINERS SENATORS MCCAIN, BIDEN
BODY:
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS
(Off Camera) Which brings us to our headliners, Senator John McCain and Senator Joseph Biden. Gentlemen, welcome. And Senator McCain, let me begin with you, those charges from Vice President Cheney, Saddam Hussein in charge in the Persian Gulf, with nuclear weapons, and the Soviet Union still in business. I can't believe you'd be friends with Senator Kerry if all that were true. Are these charges by Vice President Cheney fair?
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) I think we might be having a problem with our audio. Senator McCain, can you hear me?
SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN, REPUBLICAN, ARIZONA
Yeah, I hear you. I'm sorry, George. I think that the rhetoric on both sides has escalated, as symptomatic of the kind of race that we're in, as close we're in. I've heard charges from both sides that are obviously exaggerated, and both sides are trying to fire up their base and we just, some of it is inaccurate, others accurate. But I believe that the message is that President Bush is committed to and has a plan for and will win the war on terror, which is going to be a long struggle.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) But do you think these charges are accurate and fair?
SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN
Again, I can go through a list of charges that have been made against President Bush that are unfair, as well. A lot of unfair charges. These specifically, do I think that the Soviet Union would still be in power if John Kerry were president of the United States? I don't, I doubt if that's the case, but I also know that the '91 vote against the Persian Gulf war is a vote that I disagreed with that John Kerry took, and if everybody had voted that way, there would have been perhaps Saddam Hussein would have, still be occupying Kuwait.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Senator Biden, Senator McCain brings up unfair charges on both sides. And one of the charges that Senator Kerry has made and he made it most recently in "The Des Moines Register," let me show it to our viewers, is on the draft.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Voice Over) He said, "'With George Bush, the plan for Iraq is more of the same, and the great potential of the draft, because if we go it alone, I don't know how you do it with the current overextension of the military,' Kerry said."
graphics: the des moines register, october 15, 2004
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Now, President Bush has explicitly ruled out a draft several times. Do you and your campaign accept that?
SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN, DEMOCRAT, DELAWARE
Do I, Joe Biden, accept that?
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Yeah.
SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN
Well, I don't know how he can do that. I assume it means he's going to change his policy, I assume it means he's going to reach out and actually get more help around the world. But, look, the facts are the facts. If in fact we're still tied down four years from now, we still are in a circumstance where recruitment is down, and re-upping in the reserves and the national guard is down. And if, in fact, we still need that much force, and no one is willing to help, something has got to give. Now, maybe that means we change our policy. Maybe that means we go to a draft. Maybe that means we actually start to get other people involved. But the bottom line is, you need X amount of people to do Y chores, and right now we're overstretched, and I don't see any plan in the future that indicates that we're going to be able to convince in this administration, which seems divorced from reality, based on recommendations from Delfour, saying there are no weapons of mass destruction. His own guy, Bremer, acknowledging we needed more troops, the CIA saying Zarqawi wasn't part of the deal with Saddam. Sanchez saying we needed more equipment, et cetera. John McCain saying a month after Dick Lugar and I came back from Iraq, saying the same thing, that we needed more troops. He seems to reject all that, all that advice. I don't know how we get the job done over the next four years without more help.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Well, you heard that, Senator McCain. Something's got to give. It sounds like the door is still open in Senator Biden's mind to the possibility of a draft.
SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN
Well, look, a draft doesn't work. We proved that to anyone's satisfaction during the Vietnam War. Look, rich people will always be able to find a doctor, to tell them that they got a bad knee. This all-volunteer force is superb. It's the best military that we've ever had. And I believe that we can appeal to young Americans' patriotism, but also there's a large supply of young men and women and to some degree if you offer them sufficient incentives such as college -education and many other incentives and increase them if necessary, then we'll be able to recruit sufficient numbers of people to man the military. I view that as separate from us not having enough troops over in Iraq at the time that we should have, but ...
SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN
Oh, I agree with that, John.
SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN
Look, a draft, a draft is fundamentally unfair. It was unfair in the Civil War when people could purchase their way out of it. It was unfair during Vietnam, and these young people that we've got today are superb and I'd add one other point, it takes a long time now to train a member of the military, particularly a Marine or army personnel that are, that have to use highly technical equipment and - sophisticated technology and so a draft of a person for a short period of time also is impractical.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Well, let's turn now to ...
SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN
I don't disagree with what he said, George, I don't disagree with what he said, but he points out something has to be done. We have to have more incentives to get more people. The volunteer army, these kids are going a great job. We just need more of them over time.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Okay, let's, let's to Iraq then, Senator Biden, an American dead this morning, 49 Iraqis, executed, it appears, by insurgents on top of 17 yesterday and the intelligence we're getting now show that the attacks have actually risen during this month, the Ramadan month, 80 to 100 a day. The insurgents seem to be gaining strength. Senator, Senator Biden, it does appear that the insurgents still seem to be striking Iraqi forces, almost at will. You've said we need more troops now. Is the situation deteriorating or are we seeing some progress?
SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN
Well, it's a little of both. It's deteriorating in terms of the safety of those troops. It was predictable that they would step up the attacks, we're moving toward the notion of an election in January. I think we're going to have to do exactly what we did in, in Afghanistan. We plussed up the troops considerably, both in terms of the international security force troops and our troops so that we had a surge of troops with I think about 7,000 more troops than we had ordinarily, in order to provide for additional security for the elections. I think we're going to end up having to do the same thing in Iraq and I suspect both President Bush and Senator Kerry will say we don't have to, but I think we have to.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) I wanted to ask Senator McCain about that. Both you and Senator Biden for some time now have been saying we need more troops particularly as we get closer to the election. Set aside the results, whether it's President Bush or Senator Kerry, how are you two finally going to convince whoever the commander in chief is to put those troops in there to protect the Iraqis for their elections?
SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN
We haven't done very well so far.
SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN
We haven't.
SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN
I think we're doing very well in the north. Very well in the south. Things are very tough around Baghdad and also in the Sunni Triangle as is well known. The Sunnis were the one that did very well under Saddam Hussein. This is a tough, hard struggle. I believe that we will have elections, and I believe they'll succeed and I hope, of course, that we get more international help to help provide security for those elections but I also remind you, George, that a year or so ago, everybody, a lot of so-called experts were predicting we'd never have an election in Afghanistan. Those warlords would never allow it. This country has just never known a democracy. Look, they had an election. Millions of people turned out. Women voted in by the millions and this is a great success story. Is Afghanistan perfect, no, we've got opium, we've got warlords but by God, it's a heck of a lot better off than it was. And we can to do the same thing in Iraq, we've got to stay the course and I believe that's what President Bush is committed to.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Senator Biden, Senator McCain says he believes we can hold these elections but there was a poll out in Iraq this week that showed the religious parties doing far better than the, than Prime Minister Allawi and his allies in the government. Are you concerned at all that Prime Minister Allawi will not, will not hold the elections if he thinks he's going to lose?
SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN
No, I think he'll hold the elections and I think he'll hold the elections assuming there is an ability to do what John and I have been talking about, and that is, see to it that there's a prospect that people can go without being shot dead, and I think we can do that. John Kerry is absolutely committed to holding, seeing these elections take place. Unfortunately they're not going to take place on his watch. They're going to take place on President Bush's watch, and he supports the idea of doing all we need to do including, including making more inroads with our allies. You know, everybody says the allies don't want to get involved. The truth of the matter is, the allies, NATO sent a 48 or 49-person force to Iraq in August to give an assessment of what it would take to train the Iraqi forces. They came back with three proposals and they laid it down at the NAC.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) But Senator, excuse me for a second, there. Chancellor Schroeder and the French have said they're not going to be sending troops.
SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN
No, no, I'm not talking about the French and the Germans. Let's just say what exactly what happened, George, this group led I think by a Belgian 2-star came back and said and laid it before the political leaders of NATO at the NAC and they said, here's what we can do, we can take over the entire training operation or we can do a much smaller piece. We did not push. The vice president, the secretary of state, secretary of defense didn't go over there and say, look, we agree, take over the whole deal. We didn't even make an effort to do that so what did they do? They took the least dangerous course. They took the least costly course and they're going to now set up a college, a war college which is a good thing but they offered to take over, they recommended to take over the whole deal so my point there is that, you know, if you saw what the prime minister, what the chancellor of Germany did say, he said, in fact, that we, excuse me, the foreign minister said we said no troops under this conditions but conditions change.
GEORGE WILL, ABC NEWS
(Off Camera) But that was then. That was then modified by the chancellor. Let me just, before we leave, go on to one final point. "The Washington Post" did report as we said at the top of our broadcast Senator McCain, that the Justice Department earlier this year wrote a memo that authorized the CIA to transfer prisoners out of Iraq secretly, not telling the Red Cross and they quoted a lot of legal experts saying this breaks, breaches the Geneva Convention. I know you've read the article. Is this troubling to you?
SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN
Of course. And, look, I'd like to say that you've got a guy in your, in your custody and you know that an attack is going to take place that's going to kill Americans, you're tempted to do whatever is necessary to protect the lives of your fellow citizens and innocent people. This is a very, very tough situation but these conventions and these rules are in place for a reason, because you get on a slippery slope and you don't know where to get off, and the thing that separates us from the enemy is our respect for human rights.
SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN
That's right.
SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN
And it's a tough decision. It's a very tough decision, but we have to, we have to observe these rules and by the way it's another argument for new bosses at the CIA and a complete reformation over at the CIA so that we don't get any more slam dunk comments and more respect for the Geneva Conventions and the rights of human beings.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Senator Biden?
SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN
I think we should, also need new leadership at the Justice Department, too.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Senator Biden, Senator McCain one quick yes or no question for each of you. Senator Biden, if President Bush does win I know you don't think it's going to happen, would you be willing to serve as a secretary of state?
SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN
I would serve my country any way that the president of the United States no matter who it was thought best. I'm not sure that would be best, but I would, if President Bush wins he's my president. We have one president at a time.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Senator McCain, if Senator Kerry wins would you be willing to serve as secretary of defense?
SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN
I would not want to do that. I would much prefer to be undersecretary of state so I can tell Joe when to stop talking.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
(Off Camera) Senator McCain, Senator Biden thank you both very much.